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8 More Stories About Palin the Public Needs to Know

By AlterNet Staff, AlterNet. Posted September 10, 2008.


As she enters her second week as VP candidate, more shocking information emerges about Sarah Palin.
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It takes most politicians years to rack up the kinds of scandals, hypocrisies, and inconsistencies that have plagued Sarah Palin's candidacy in the week and a half since she catapulted to national attention. But the disturbing revelations about Palin's record as mayor and governor, and her positions on the issues, inexplicably just keep coming.

AlterNet has compiled a list of the 8 most recent revelations about McCain's VP pick that the public needs to know.

1. Palin paid herself to stay at home.

Sarah Palin is being trumpeted as a fiscal conservative. And it's true to a certain extent. She did cut funding for a program that helps teen moms get back on their feet. But as the Washington Post revealed today, Palin may not be a paragon of fiscal restraint after all. The Post reports that Palin paid herself a per diem allowance (money that's supposed to cover expenses accrued while traveling on state business) for the 312 days she spent in her home in Wasilla during her 19 months in office.

The Post also states that travel expenses for her husband and kids totaled $43,490.

According to former Alaska Gov. Tony Knowles, this is hardly par for the course in Alaska:

"I gave a direction to all my commissioners if they were ever in their house, whether it was Juneau or elsewhere, they were not to get a per diem because, clearly, it is and it looks like a scam -- you pay yourself to live at home,"

Furthermore:

... the policy was not to reimburse for family travel on commercial airlines, because there is no direct public benefit to schlepping kids around the state.

As Jane Hamsher at FireDogLake writes:

Palin and her husband both make six-figure incomes. They don't need to be chiseling the state for this money to live, and she sure isn't entitled to be running on fiscal responsibility when she's pocketing cash in a way that has a history of being regarded in Alaska as a "scam."

2. Next to Palin, even McCain looks like an economic genius.

Over the weekend Palin probably gave economic analysts throughout the land mini-strokes when she made an egregious misstatement about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the lending institutions at the heart of the housing market meltdown. During a speech in Colorado Springs, Palin stated that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers."

While the two companies will soon face a takeover by the Treasury Department, they are currently privately owned. So any burden on taxpayers is in the future, when the government goes about the task of helping the lending giants out of their largely self-made mess.

As the Huffington Post reports, Palin's gaffe does not auger well for her ability to handle the complex economic issues that will dog the next administration:

"You would like to think that someone who is going to be vice president and conceivable president would know what Fannie and Freddie do," said Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research. "These are huge institutions and they are absolutely central to our country's mortgage debt. To not have a clue what they do doesn't speak well for her, I'd say."

3. Palin's Wasilla charged rape victims for their sexual assault exams.

When Sarah Palin was Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, the town's police department charged rape victims for their forensic testing.

In a May, 2000 article, the Frontiersman reported:

While the Alaska State Troopers and most municipal police agencies have covered the cost of exams, which cost between $300 to $1,200 apiece, the Wasilla police department does charge the victims of sexual assault for the tests.

Wasilla Police Chief Charlie Fannon stated:

"In the past we've charged the cost of exams to the victims insurance company when possible. I just don't want to see any more burden put on the taxpayer," Fannon said.

Let's be clear: charging a person who has the strength to come forward after being sexually assaulted for their own examination isn't just insensitive, it is monstrous. And for victims to hear the Chief of Police say that he thinks it's right to charge the victim is horrifying.


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She hates cats?
Posted by: DR. LARRY MITCHELL on Sep 10, 2008 12:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was never in a million years going to vote for her, but THIS is too much!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: She hates cats? Posted by: Wildman
» RE: Don't be silly: Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: She hates cats? Posted by: jeanna
» RE: She hates cats? Posted by: debmcd
» RE: She hates cats? Posted by: gzuckier
» RE: She hates cats? Posted by: WireHedd
» RE: She hates cats? Posted by: donl51
What a fellow Alaskan thinks of Hockey Puck Palin
Posted by: VetAgainst McCain on Sep 10, 2008 2:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following text was extracted from a letter dated August 31, 2008 -- written by Anne Kilkenny, a resident of Palin's mayoral city, Wasilla.

-----------------------------------------------

As mayor, Palin had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the "bridge to nowhere" after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative action restored most of these projects—which had been vetoed simply because she was not aware of their importance—but with the unobservant she had gained a reputation as "anti-pork."

Sarah is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her "Sarah Barracuda" because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness.

Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team.

When Sarah's mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package of legislation known as "AGIA" that forced the oil companies to march to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to global warming. She campaigned "as a private citizen" against a state initiative that would have either (a) protected salmon streams from pollution from mines, or (b) tied up in the courts all mining in the state, depending on who you listen to. She has pushed the State’s lawsuit against the Department of the Interior's decision to list polar bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a heartbeat away from being President. There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more knowledgeable and experienced than she. However, there are lots of people who have underestimated her and are regretting it.

Vet against McCain
To find out why, click on the links below
VietnamVeteransAgainstJohnMcCain.com
VoteVets.org

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» see the rest of the letter Posted by: wefearwhatwedontunderstand
» This is why.......... Posted by: Karl.Ben
» RE: This is why.......... Posted by: camanokat
make that NINE things
Posted by: jsheeler on Sep 10, 2008 3:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this is from joy harjo's myspace site.

Tuesday, September 09, 2008

Sarah Palin’s Record on Alaska Native & Tribal Issues

1. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Fishing
Perhaps no issue is of greater importance to Alaska Native peoples as the right to hunt
and fish according to ancient customary and traditional practices, and to carry on the subsistence way of life for future generations.
Governor Sarah Palin has consistently opposed those rights. In pressing this case, Palin decided against using the Attorney General (which usually handles State litigation) and instead continued contracting with Senator Ted Stevens' brother-in-law's law firm.

2. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Hunting
Palin has also sought to invalidate critical determinations the Federal Subsistence Board
has made regarding customary and traditional uses of game, specifically to take hunting
opportunities away from Native subsistence villagers and thereby enhance sport hunting.
Palin's attack here on subsistence has focused on the Ahtna Indian people in Chistochina.
Although the federal district court has rejected Palin's challenge, she has carried on an appeal that was argued in August 2008. (State of Alaska v. Fleagle, No. 07-35723 (9th Cir.).) In both hunting and fishing matters, Palin has continued uninterrupted the policies
initiated by the former Governor Frank Murkowski Administration, challenging hunting and fishing protections that Native people depend upon for their subsistence way of life in order to enhance sport fishing and hunting opportunities. Palin's lawsuits are a direct attack on the core way of life of Native Tribes in rural Alaska.

3. Palin has attacked Alaska Tribal Sovereignty
Governor Palin opposes Alaska tribal sovereignty.
Given past court rulings affirming the federally recognized tribal status of Alaska Native
villages, Palin does not technically challenge that status. But Palin argues that Alaska Tribes
have no authority to act as sovereigns, despite their recognition.
So extreme is Palin on tribal sovereignty issues that she has sought to block tribes from
exercising any authority whatsoever even over the welfare of Native children, adhering to a 2004
legal opinion issued by the former Murkowski Administration that no such jurisdiction exists
(except when a state court transfers a matter to a tribal court).

4. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Languages
Palin has refused to accord proper respect to Alaska Native languages and voters by
refusing to provide language assistance to Yup'ik speaking Alaska Native voters. As a result, Palin was just ordered by a special three-judge panel of federal judges to provide various forms of voter assistance to Yup'ik voters residing in southwest Alaska.

more detail and refs at harjo's site:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.
view&friendID=142326290&blogID=431574095

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: make that NINE things Posted by: Bibsisis
More Evidence
Posted by: knowmore on Sep 10, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
May I point out the generally missed aclosed-door energy forum hosted by the father of Dick Cheney's son-in-law, Texas Governor Rick Perry, and featuring the CEO's of 5 energy giants, that Ms. Palin was not only attending, but actually delivering the key note address, on the day her body began to try to deliver her fifth child, Trig. Indeed, her water broke in Texas, but she somehow stalled the birth long enough to give her speech, fly at least hours back to Anchorage, then drive another 43 miles to the hospital where Trig was finally born. She claims that she knew what she was doing, but this is not supported as being safe by many health practitioners.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: More Evidence Posted by: wal55
» RE: More Evidence Posted by: WireHedd
» RE: More Evidence Posted by: Bibsisis
Palin???
Posted by: Tom Degan on Sep 10, 2008 4:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just keep saying it over and over in your head:

VICE PRESIDENT SARAH PALIN

I need a drink.

Forgive me, this might seem like a cruel thing to say but it is an issue which is just screaming to be addressed. John McCain is seventy-two years old. He is a cancer survivor. He is not in the best of health. At times during this campaign, he has seemed to be on the verge os senility. Even in the best of condiditons, the law of averages absolutely forbids him from not passing away between now and January 20, 2012. I can just see the movie marquee:

GIDGET GOES TO THE OVAL OFFICE

Forget the drink, I need some heroin.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Barack Needs Our Help

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Palin??? Posted by: mary-alias
» RE: Scary indeed Posted by: solrev
» RE: Palin??? Posted by: stopthemaddness2
» stopthemadness2: Posted by: Tom Degan
» Lipstick donations, anyone? Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Palin??? Posted by: tdterry1999
Proud to be a "Barracuda"
Posted by: taxidriver on Sep 10, 2008 4:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How dare she appropriate the Heart tune, "Barracuda," as her own? Hmmm ... then again, "Smile like the sun ... kisses for everyone," but a vicious streak underneath -- might be the most accurate campaign song yet!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Proud to be a "Barracuda" Posted by: luzmejor
» How About... Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: How About... Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Proud to be a "Barracuda" Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: Proud to be a "Barracuda" Posted by: WireHedd
» RE: Proud to be a "Barracuda" Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Proud to be a "Barracuda" Posted by: gzuckier
» RE: Proud to be a "Barracuda" Posted by: Karl.Ben
No no no, it's ten things
Posted by: Elmowilcox on Sep 10, 2008 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NUMBER 10:

PALIN ISN'T RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT

get back to McCain, he has successfully dodged any scrutiny since Palin "took over" and is gaining points in the polls.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» plus... Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: No no no, it's ten things Posted by: luzmejor
brer
Posted by: brer on Sep 10, 2008 5:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The ONLY place I'm reading this stuff is on liberal blogs!

Why isn't the "liberal" mainstream media covering this!?

It's so frustrating. How can we get it into the national conversation?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: brer Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: brer Posted by: thealltheone
» RE: brer Posted by: madmax427
» RE: I'm Takin My Bawl and Going Home! Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: brer Posted by: GeorgiaBlue
Item #4
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Sep 10, 2008 5:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just did a little research. This item isn't being correctly vetted for public consumption.

AK HB 210, passed in 2007 provided for the *automatic promotion*.

I think we should do a little more investigating as to why this happened. My guess is that ANYONE who faces an automatic pay raise will do anything to get it in AK.

That includes sucking her a**.

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Sales 101
Posted by: redbird30328 on Sep 10, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very few, if any, alternet readers and posters have apparently ever spent a day in sales. People do not make buying decisions based on logic. Meditate on your last major purchase decision and you will identify significant emotion involved. Obviously, many people identify with Palin and like what they see. She is one of them. When she is attacked, they are attacked. It is really comical that anyone thinks the "reasons" in this article will resonate with anyone other than subscribers to Mao Monthly. Stay focused on these types of talking points and you will lose badly in November.

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» back to basics: IRAQ Posted by: wefearwhatwedontunderstand
» RE: Sales 101 Posted by: Duncable
» RE: Sales 101 Posted by: redbird30328
» RE: Sales 101 Posted by: Lilly
Of Course....
Posted by: Rutabaga on Sep 10, 2008 6:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And of course the mainstream corporate media, which desperately wants McCain and Palin to win so that they can keep their outrageous profits and tax breaks, won't cover any of these stories. Because they don't care about the truth or fairness...they only care about ratings and money.

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» RE: Of Course.... Posted by: stopthemaddness2
joan of arc
Posted by: sherman on Sep 10, 2008 6:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this woman is clearly the joan of arc of our times. we should roll out the red carpet for her and worship at her feet.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: joan of arc Posted by: cats.anon
» RE: joan of arc Posted by: jareilly
» RE: joan of arc Posted by: kk33deg
» RE: joan of arc Posted by: tap17x
bfreewithrp
Posted by: luciennh on Sep 10, 2008 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Alaska governor Palin gets in through McCain, our oil[including home heating oil] and thus gas prices will go through the roof.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Peak Oil Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: It's a matter of physics Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: It's a matter of physics Posted by: WireHedd
Adult Diapers for McChangin' & Pailin'
Posted by: stevehamlin on Sep 10, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have to admit, though. . . her Saturday Night Live Lisa Loopner impression is dead on.

Sounds exactly like Lisa Loopner. . .

Looks exactly like Lisa Loopner. . .

Lisa Loopner had a boyfriend named Todd, and that's her husband's name. . . !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Loopner

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McCain's stroke of genius
Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 10, 2008 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You gotta hand it to McCain--appointing a Vice President who will make your worst enemies pray daily for your continued good health!

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Your VP Might be a Redneck if She ...
Posted by: DrHipHappy on Sep 10, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... is a fascist fundamentalist who loves to kill animals. She is also proud of her future son-in-law who is a self-proclaimed "F@&king Redneck."

What should really concern progressives is that Palin is a ruthless and racist REDNECK. This really a war between the past and future. In fact, I have written that the rednecks have run American for too long. Every president since Carter has been a redneck. This is most true of Clinton and Bush II.

Read all about this and other topics at The HipHappy Times

The rednecks are the foot soldiers of the Culture war. For good overview of redneck culture watch the old movie "Deliverance." You will see lots of Palin people in that movie.

Friends don't let friends vote for rednecks!!

Join other sane and compassionate people who are against being force-fed this moldy Moose Stew. See The HipHappy Times

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» RE: Your VP Might be a Redneck if She ... Posted by: AnIndependentThinker
» RE: Your VP Might be a Redneck if She ... Posted by: stopthemaddness2
» RE: Your VP Might be a Redneck if She ... Posted by: AnIndependentThinker
» RE: Your VP Might be a Redneck if She ... Posted by: AnIndependentThinker
Palin's denials are always worse than the initial reports she's "debunking"
Posted by: Jasonix on Sep 10, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anyone noticed that whenever Palin "debunks" a story about her, her version of events is usually even worse than the original charges against her?

The town she mayored claims that she tried to ban library books. She denies this, and says that she merely asked if the librarian would be willing to do so if asked, because she wanted to test the librarian's loyalty.

Some blogs note rumors from Alaska that her son Trig is actually her grand-daughter. She replies by saying that her daughter Bristol couldn't have been pregnant with Trig, because she's pregnant now, which means that Palin cares nothing about exposing her teen daughter to public humiliation and has no plans to "be there" for her daughter during the most difficult time of her life. Also, it turns out that Palin was either too obstinate or too stupid to seek prompt medical help when she went into premature labor with her Down's syndrome baby, but delivered a speech to oil company executives, flew back to Alaska, and drove 50 miles before checking into a hospital.

Each time, the Republicans claim the stories about Palin are "debunked," when even if their denials are true, it's a lot worse!

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X-POLYGAMIST WIFE in ARIZONA
Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 10, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin fits right in with polygamous FLDS women in Colorado City, Arizona where down syndrome babies and teenage pregnancies are the norm.

http://www.bankingonheaven.com

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Palin lifts McCain’s Support
Posted by: DrSuess on Sep 10, 2008 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the title on the front page article on the Wall Street Journal today. I actually read the article, and it is flattering on the front page, but goes over the controversies about her on the inside page. They also report that a recent poll says that voters are becoming more comfortable with Obama on the front page of this article. The Wall Street Journal tends to favor Palin (surprise), but it is not as strong or consistent as you might expect. It is covering the controversies that are coming up for her. If you look at the picture on the front page- it show Palin peeking out over McCain’ shoulder.

The regular press is trying to hide the Palin controversy as much as it possibly can. This only proves to me that they are totally biased. The questions about Palin are very legitimate ones. She is running on “cutting government waste” but handed the citizens of her city a horrible pork barrel project. And I could go on and on with the inconsistencies in her touted views and actual actions.

I am personally convinced that the people who “vetted” her were the oil company executives. They choose someone who would totally give them everything they wanted.

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» Photos exist . . . Posted by: countingdaisies
» First WS supported Obama, now Palin? Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
amazingjim
Posted by: amazingjim on Sep 10, 2008 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what if the mainstream media loses ratings, because the audience wises up, all by itself, and with a flash of brilliance, the audience votes 'left' ?
Who, given their right mind, surrenders to the media ?

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Just goes to Show McCheney's Judgment...
Posted by: AnIndependentThinker on Sep 10, 2008 7:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When a presidential candidate chooses a virtually UNKNOWN vp, who has a terrible record on so many issues, it is very telling on just what type of judgment McCheney has. As a woman, I cannot for the life of me, cut off my nose to spite my face and vote for someone like McCheney and the new female version of Carl Rove.

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stopthemaddness2
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Sep 10, 2008 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say it and I will keep saying it. The real problem here is the fact that this woman is not adequate to run this nation. She will be a heart beat away from the highest office in this oountry. What in the hell could the McCain be thinking in choosing her? There are more scandalous reports coming out everyday about her. If the non mainstream reporters would fully investigate her, I am sure they would uncover even more unsavory facts that should scare the hell out of everybody. Why would you give dynamite to a person who is a pyromaniac?
Why would you give power to one is ignorant of how to use power and has no clue as to what the Vice President duties even are??/ This is absolutely insane. And yes, the mainstream media must be getting payola and kick backs in my opinion because they continue to help sweep all of PALIN'S DIRTY LAUNDRY UNDER THE RUG... and she has a lot of it. So much so, that the thought of her being that close to the oval office is just plan frightening!!!! Scary enough to make me want to polish up my passport and wait out the next four years in another country far away from here should this genocidal nut cakes take the ticket in November. She will bring nothing but war and the worst poverty this country has ever seen and faced. The Great Depression will be a picnic in the park compared to what will follow should this destructive duo win.

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» Pray for another Woodward & Bernstein team! Posted by: VetAgainst McCain
thanks to mccain
Posted by: jareilly on Sep 10, 2008 9:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should be thanking John McCain for making our choices so clear. The Dems should take advantage of this gigantic opportunity to draw conclusive, far-reaching philosophical and policy lines between Palin/McCain and their candidates. The real tragedy is not that Palin is that close to the White House and the red phone. The real tragedy is that the Dems will probably fold, in fear, confusion, flannel-mouthed equivocation, triangulation and sheer raging cowardice and let the nuts win. They are doing it already.

Obama has made this race largely about personal charm. Say what you will about "barracuda", she exudes a kind of charm a lot of (unbelievably simple-minded) voters find irresistable. She seems spunky, unscripted, bold and self-confident - who would say any of those things about Joe Biden? And she's young, a good thing when courting a young voter demographic and a good thing with an old candidate for Pres. Voters see her vigor and energy; they seem refractory to actual facts regarding her less than glorious tenure as mayor and governor. They don't understand that Alaskans are among the largest recipients of federal government (taxpayer) largesse. They think Alaskans are bold frontier folk, field-dressing moose and bravely hacking a living out of a frozen wilderness, faithful sled dogs at their sides.

When this is what the battlefield looks like, you don't surrender the high ground, you don't agree with your enemy on principle but disagree on practice. You attack the enemy at their real and percieved strong point. You fundamentally reject their worldview. You show how their worldview harms lives and destroys liberties. You never, ever, ever apologize for your enemy's worldview or state your enemy's "good intentions" as Obama already has repeatedly. When your enemy draws sharp distinctions, you make them sharper. You have the guts to alienate your enemy's base and maybe a few dithering, lazy "independents" in the middle. You have the guts to call a pile of dog shit what it is.

This is why McCain/Palin have a very good chance of winning. They are better at this.

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» RE: thanks to mccain Posted by: stopthemaddness2
» Best chance is Biden in the VP debate Posted by: countingdaisies
stopthemaddness2