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Soul Freedom

By Bill Moyers, AlterNet. Posted September 10, 2005.


The notion of spiritual freedom is at risk, and the fourth observance of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 is an appropriate time to think about it.

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Ed. Note: This article is adapted from Bill Moyer's address this week at Union Theological Seminary in New York, where Judith and Bill Moyers received the seminary's highest award, the Union Medal, for their contributions to faith and reason in America.

At the Central Baptist Church in Marshall, Texas, where I was baptized in the faith, we believed in a free church in a free state. I still do. My spiritual forbears did not take kindly to living under theocrats who embraced religious liberty for themselves but denied it to others.

"Forced worship stinks in God's nostrils," thundered the dissenter Roger Williams as he was banished from Massachusetts for denying Puritan authority over his conscience.

Baptists there were a "pitiful negligible minority" but they were agitators for freedom and therefore denounced as "incendiaries of the commonwealth" for holding to their belief in that great democracy of faith -- the priesthood of all believers. For refusing to pay tribute to the state religion they were fined, flogged and exiled.

In 1651, the Baptist Obadiah Holmes was given 30 stripes with a three-corded whip after he violated the law and took forbidden communion with another Baptist in Lynn, Massachusetts. His friends offered to pay his fine for his release but he refused. They offered him strong drink to anesthetize the pain of the flogging. Again he refused. It is the love of liberty, he said, "that must free the soul."

Such revolutionary ideas made the new nation with its Constitution and Bill of Rights "a haven for the cause of conscience." No longer could magistrates order citizens to support churches they did not attend and recite creeds that they did not believe. No longer would "the loathsome combination of church and state" -- as Thomas Jefferson described it -- be the settled order.

Unlike the Old World that had been wracked with religious wars and persecution, the government of America would take no sides in the religious free-for-all that liberty would make possible and politics would make inevitable. The First Amendment neither inculcates religion nor inoculates against it. Americans could be loyal to the Constitution without being hostile to God, or they could pay no heed to God without fear of being mugged by an official God Squad.

It has been a remarkable arrangement that guaranteed "soul freedom." It is at risk now, and the fourth observance of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 is an appropriate time to think about it.

Four years ago this week, the poet's prophetic metaphor became real again and "the great dark birds of history" plunged into our lives. They came in the name of God. They came bent on murder and martyrdom. It was as if they rode to earth on the fierce breath of Allah himself, for the sacred scriptures that had nurtured these murderous young men are steeped in images of a violent and vengeful God who wills life for the faithful and horrific torment for unbelievers.

Yes, the Koran speaks of mercy and compassion and calls for ethical living. But such passages are no match for the ferocity of instruction found there for waging war for God's sake.

The scholar Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer carefully traces this trail of holy violence in his important book, Is Religion Killing Us? [Trinity Press International. 2003]. He highlights many of the verses in the Koran that the Islamic terrorists could have had in their hearts and on their lips four years ago as they moved toward their gruesome rendezvous.

As I read some of them, close your eyes and recall the scenes of that bright September morning which began in the bright sun under a blue sky: "Those who believe Fight in the cause of Allah, and Those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil."(4:76)

"So We sent against them A furious Wind through days of disaster, that We might Give them a taste of a Penalty of humiliation In this Life; but The Penalty of the Hereafter will be More Humiliating still: And they Will find No help." (41:16)

"Then watch thou For the Day That the sky will Bring forth a kind Of smoke (or mist) Plainly visible, Enveloping the people: This will be a Penalty Grievous." (44:10-11)

"Did the people of the towns Feel Secure against the coming Of Our Wrath by night While they were asleep? Or else did they feel Secure against its coming in Broad daylight while they Played About (carefree)? Did they then feel secure Against the Plan of Allah? -- But no one can feel Secure from the Plan of Allah, except those (Doomed) to ruin." (7:97-99)

So the holy warriors came -- an airborne death cult, their sights on God's enemies: regular folks, starting the day's routine. One minute they're pulling off their jackets, shaking Sweet n' Low into their coffee, adjusting the height of their chair or a picture of a child or sweetheart or spouse in a frame on their desk, booting up their computer -- and in the next, they are engulfed by a horrendous cataclysm. God's will. Poof!


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Bill Moyers is a broadcast journalist and former host of the PBS program "NOW With Bill Moyers."

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Time to smell the coffee!
Posted by: Sinala001 on Sep 10, 2005 3:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I knew this would be worth reading. Now I am almost sorry I did; this is so disheartening! But the only way to protect our freedoms is to work as hard as possible to combat what Mr. Moyers has described. I consider myself well-informed, but even I had no idea that it was this bad. Thank you, Mr. Moyers, for this wake-up call. The clock is ticking; 2008 isn't all that far away. Email this to friends and family; spread the word!

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Bill Moyers
Posted by: Tom Degan on Sep 10, 2005 5:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's easy to forget nowadays that there are still voices of reason among us. Thank God for Bill Moyers! I was also amazed that Robertson's Operation Blessing was one of the first to be given funds to go into New Orleans. Much of the money he has raised under that banner has gone into buying equptment for his diamond mine. Have these people, these so-called "men of God" ever even read the Sermon on the Mount?
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

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» Pat Robertson Posted by: Olympiada
menckenman
Posted by: menckenman on Sep 10, 2005 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Facism is the marriage of religious intolerance, corporate malfeasance and militarism. The sophisticated, literate, reasonable people of Berlin sat by while the Nazi bullies eradicated them in a religious fervor and Hitler supplied slaves and resources to a corporate military.

We're on our way!

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» Hitler's Germany? Posted by: Dale Dressler
chrisitan fascism is an oxymoron
Posted by: lange on Sep 10, 2005 5:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christian fascism is an oxymoron, but there are morons in power and seeking power who could make it a reality in the USA. Bill Moyers, one of the great prophetic voices in the wilderness, has done much to expose these wolves disguised as shepherds who have hijacked both cross and flag in their mad pursuit for power. More detailed exposure along with a call to action is found in "Christianity at the Crossroads: The Big Lie vs. The Gospel Truth" about to be published by Xlibris.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

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What's the Matter with the United States?
Posted by: mark5761 on Sep 10, 2005 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A little over a year ago we moved from central Illinois to Kansas, Johnson County Kansas to be specific. Upon arrival we participated in a state representative campaign supporting a local liberal democrat against the highly conservative republican machine.

By any measure the incumbent was ill-suited for the position, and yet because he espoused conservative Christian values, he won the election 4:1 going away. For me it was a chilling introduction into the ability of masses of people to suspend their God given intellects and blindly follow the interpreted words of a few religious leaders.

As an evolved and deeply spiritual individual I find it almost impossible to believe that our country is headed down the path to the same totalitarian fundamentalism that we attack as evil in the Taliban or al-Qaeda. Could the United States really become an intolerant, fundamentalist regime bent on persecution of anyone and everyone who isn't one of them?

Unfortunately, the answer is yes. Go read Thomas Frank's enlightening book What's the Matter With Kansas. In it you will discover how a state that was arguably the birthplace of progressive politics in the United States has become the seat of radical fundamentalism, hatred, and intolerance.

More than the clarion voice of Bill Moyers, we need the voices of ordinary citizens, to call out the half-truths and innuendoes. We cannot simple stand by and hope that the pendulum of our moral center will eventually swing back towards egalitarianism, acceptance, and true faith. For by the time that happens it maybe too late.

Everyone reading this needs to become their own Pastor of Patriotism. Only we need to preach from the true book of God - the wondrous, myriad and ever evolving collection of life on this planet - and not allow the corporate juggernaut to continue to dupe our dogmatic brothers and sisters into creating a world where blind allegiance to a hateful fundamentalism is the only means of survival.

Now is the time to stand up and be counted.

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Zealots
Posted by: Sandra on Sep 10, 2005 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is always the zealots who cause the most harm. Unfortunately these zealots have taken over the government and have highjacked the media. Where are the religious people of conscience, those who would choose to follow the path of the peace and forgiveness, who would view the people of the world as their brothers and sisters, their family? I believe that people of faith must stand up to these bullies in power and clearly state and show that their version of religion is not shared by all people of faith, that their version of God is one of endless war and doom for our children. How on earth with all of the power that we have to do good, to take care of those who are less fortunate, to love people and to enrich our lives and other lives, can we be going down this path of horror? I do not understand the selfishness, the arrogance and the mean spiritedness of that spiritual view. Thank you Bill Moyers for continuing to remind us that this dark vision now parallels but can soon overcome all that is good in this country.

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Than you Mr.Moyers
Posted by: geckosfeet on Sep 10, 2005 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How refereshing, amidst the catastrophic hurricane Katrina, the maddness in Iraq, and the economic powers plays at home, to hear a quiet voice of reason and unvarnished, harsh truth.
Void of the rightousness of the right, calm and serene in tempo, this piece illustrates and exposes how the theocon movement has hijacked one of our precious and personal possesions. Our faith and spiritual beliefs have been played upon to control, unite and manipulate us under the banners of blind rightousness and division.
Can there be any greater evil?

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At least one person knows what they're talking about.
Posted by: kittynboi on Sep 10, 2005 6:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Moyers is 100% right. WE won't win this by leanring to talk about religion. NOTHING short of our complete annihilation will ever please these people.

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The Royal Priesthood of the Believers
Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 10, 2005 7:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am duly impressed Mr. Moyers, duly impressed. I have paid attention to you since my youth, and you have helped me since then.

Many things pierced me in your writing today, including your statement "the priesthood of the believers." Well, one of my favorite books is The Sacrament of Love by Paul Evdokimov which has a whole chapter, the 4th chapter, which is called The Royal Priesthood of the Believers. As Christians, by nature of our chrismation, we are all priests.

What times to be a Christian, what times. I am such a babe in the faith and I have woken up to a holy war. My stomach turns. I am not ready for this. My knees quake in fear.

You are absolutely right. George Bush is the most powerful fundamentalist president ever. And I have become a conscious Christian during his reign. When I said I wanted to fight American Protestant Fundamentalism I had no idea the magnitude of the battle. I know now, and I am scared.

The American Protestant Fundamentalists have succeeded in stopping up the ears of many liberals who can not hear the word Christian for this is all they think of. Not only that, they have succeded in swaying the ignorant and uneducated, the irrational. How can you reason with the unreasonable? You can not. Lord, have mercy.

It is strengthening to hear from a reasonable Christian. Please, keep writing. I need you. We need you.

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» Religion Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Olympiada Posted by: kww355
» RE: Religion Posted by: Tom Holum
» All Christians aren't fundies Posted by: nadezhda
» socially active Posted by: Olympiada
Trust the people
Posted by: IanA on Sep 10, 2005 8:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every article, whether on religion, moral, war, natural disaster, economy, even science or humour points to a breakdown of the system of government of the USA. The curtain of the illusion of freedom and liberal democracy has been drawn to show the brick walls of Fascism that protects extreme and corrupt, executive, legislation, and legal branches of this government.

The effects of American fascism is global, and vicious and the prayers, compassion and hope of all the world should be with the American people, that they may overcome their tyranny with the minimum of hardship and suffering. But as Bill Moyers article said :

“ One lesson about democracy stands above all others: Bullies -- political bullies, economic bullies, and religious bullies -- cannot be appeased; they have to be opposed with a stubbornness to match their own. This is never easy; these guys don't fight fair;”

So many commentators on AlterNet articles have said “Impeach”. Well, it won’t happen. How many more disasters will you have to weather before elections in 06 or 08 are again manipulated to provide the pre-programmed outcome designed by a two franchised (party) system owned by the same military industrial complex. Can you wait and fool yourself that long just to land up with another Twidle D. Di or Tiwdle D. Dum. The entire political, legal and economic structure has been usurped to serve the elite. You are left now with only one option.

Call it the WHITE REVOLUTION. You love your flag, but the reds and the blues have proven redundant. White as in a new clean page, on which to write the future of the People of America; the colour of the dove of peace; and they don’t shoot people with white flags, or do they?

On the 24th of September march to Washington, take over the city and stay there till Bush/Cheney and the entire administration resign, and a caretaker government is put in place pending immediate free and fair direct elections for Executive and Legislative branches of a new government.

Win back democracy with people power, it’s time to end the lies and stand for freedom.

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» RE: Trust the people Posted by: didjeri_voodoo
» Semantics Posted by: kww355
» RE: Semantics Posted by: paulaH
WHEN IN THE COURSE OF HUMAN EVENTS
Posted by: RogerARTcom on Sep 10, 2005 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.
WHEN IN THE COURSE OF HUMAN EVENTS

IT BECOMES NECESSARY for the PEOPLE of the United States

TO ALTER or ABOLISH the United States Government

as it exists in the year 2001 / 02 / 03 / 04 / 05 / 06
.

Using the Authority, Law, and Intentions of the Constitution

and the Declaration of Independence
.

And Now the People Step Forward

and Charge High Treason,
.

and Show that Democracy in its roots today,
.

is Corrupt.
.

And that the Constitution has been Altered and Betrayed

in Favor of A Small Group of Millionaires,

Over Another...
.

the Governed,
.

the People of the United States.
.

And that the Election Process is UN-fair

and has been Overwhelmed

and Monopolized

by Millionaires

and their millions of dollars
.

Continued at

http://www.RogerART.com

Scroll Down till You see Yellow link to

( Re-Written ) Declaration of Independence
.

Thank You, Roger@RogerART.com
.

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SEE... the GREAT... BILL MOYERS... WORDS... in PAINT
Posted by: RogerARTcom on Sep 10, 2005 9:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SEE... the GREAT... BILL MOYERS WORDS in PAINT

at http://www.RogerART.com

See 15 + Patriot, Political,

... PROTEST bu$h PAINTINGS

Series # 9… 15 + PAINTINGS Completed in 2001

Scroll Down Till U C LINK 2

1. ONE… Re-Written Declaration of Independence

2. TWO…15 + Patriot, PROTEST PAINTINGS
.
Thank You, Roger Drowne EC
.

See RogerART.com Other Web Sites 2

1. http://www.RogerART.com

2. http://www.OneGlobalCommunity.com

3. http://www.TheBuffaloParty.com
.

Peace and Love 2 All Earth Citizens
.

... All Over OUR Earth

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I think we should all start with prayer
Posted by: LPB on Sep 10, 2005 10:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a terrifying and true article. Yes, for years I have seen people I know and love who hold deep religious convictions and try to live up to the example set by Jesus Christ being confused and led astray by the religious rhetoric spewed forth by the Republican party. None of my comments about false prophets have been able to help them see that Bush was using religion to mask a darker agenda and to take away the freedoms of those who did not share his religious beliefs. Some of these people are so loving and so innocent of deceit themselves that they could not see the club Bush was hiding behind his back. Now it feels like it's almost too late. I have felt for years that I was alone in my perception of how things were taking place. I have been talking about Big Brother for years and receiving puzzled looks in return or indulgent smiles. (Yeah, she's a little crazy, but she seems harmless enough) I agree that we must act now before it's too late. I, sadly, am not sure exactly what to do in the political, social, and physical arena, but I do know this. All people who cherish spiritual freedom must pray. Those of us who are unable to do anything else can, at the very least, do this. Pray unceasingly, with all your might, for the love of God and the peace that passeth all understanding to descend upon us all, especially those whose hearts have been hardened and whose eyes have been blinded by this fundamentalism to the teachings of Jesus himself. Of course, when we see opportunities to take action, we must seize upon those chances. We must all use our every resource to preserve a free society for our children. I certainly don't have all the answers, and I find the current situation to be bleak. But I believe in the power of prayer, so I urge anyone who loves God and/or loves freedom to pray, pray, pray! Pray for ourselves and pray for our enemies, pray for a world of peace, and never stop believing that free will is the will of God. He gave free will to Adam and Eve and he has never taken it away. If God didn't believe in free will, then why would he have created us with the capacity to question Him or to choose not to love or worship?

Okay, maybe I'm rambling a little bit. I'll say it one more time: take action whenever possible, but at all times, pray, pray, pray! To anyone who chooses to read my comment, thank you for listening to what I have to say, and peace be with you.

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» I don't Posted by: ssegallmd
» RE: I don't Posted by: LPB
» RE: I don't Posted by: paulaH
» RE: I don't Posted by: LPB
» RE: I don't Posted by: kittynboi
» Beautiful comment lpb Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Beautiful comment lpb Posted by: Basenjis
Bushies Do Believe in Government
Posted by: Cayenne on Sep 10, 2005 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must disagree with Bill's assertion that the Bushies do not believe in government. They frequently try to disguise their agenda as libertarian, but they are nothing but empire builders, plain and simple. If you read their plans as posted by the Project for a New American Century, you will see that the only agenda is to strengthen government as an instrument of power for the rich, while pretending to be libertarian when they are ready to cut benefits to the poor. If there is anything that should be learned from 9/11 and Katrina, it is that GOVERNMENT WILL NOT PROTECT YOU. We should all be working locally to protect ourselves. Perhaps all of those mayors out there could start working on practical matters like emergency procedures instead of trying to manage local economies by bribing corporations to "create jobs."
As an example of what FEMA's idea of helping people is like, check out this post:http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/fema.html
They are keeping 5000 survivors of the storm locked in a former church camp where they are NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE for 5 months. Besides, the "shades of ALex Jones" aspect of this. Exactly how are they helping these people by keeping them in storage where they cannot seek new jobs or places to live?

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I don't
Posted by: ssegallmd on Sep 10, 2005 1:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not my intent to hurt you, and no offense or malice is intended, but I need to skewer your words. Your post made my eyes water from incredulity, embarrassment and a sense of hopelessness.

“Some of these people are so loving and so innocent of deceit themselves that they could not see the club Bush was hiding.” You praise these people with your words, but because of their acceptance of dogma, they have stopped thinking critically a long time ago, and this makes them easy prey. Why do you think the Republicans have gone banging on the church doors to find people who could be made to believe that black is white, up is down, and that they should vote against their own interest for phantom issues like presidential blow-job prevention and gay-marriage induced civilization collapse?

I would just say that it was a pity if that was all there was to it, but these drones in the Matrix will be the end of us all. It’s like living in a family as one of two adults, the other one being Charles Manson, with three run as a democracy. Charlie dupes the kids every time and chaos ensues. Do not praise these people for being so naïve. This is one of the dangers of religion.

“All people who cherish spiritual freedom must pray.” Typical self-centered Christian perception and perversion of logic. Try not to use the words “freedom” and “must” so close to one another. And consider that spirituality is a realm so much vaster than your narrow perception that prayer would get lost in it. You say you believe prayer works. What if I say I believe astrology works? They each have about the same track record. Haven’t you 161 million or so Christian’s been praying for the country for the last four years? According to your bumper stickers you have. How’s that working out? About like my horoscopes. But that shouldn’t daunt us.

“Pray for our enemies?” What? Pray for them to be defeated you mean, don’t you. Do your words have ANY meaning? Why don’t we bet on both teams in the World Series, too?

“Never stop believing that free will is the will of God.” WHAT!?? I guess that God wants you have free will just as long as you don’t use it but instead succumb to his will. Freely. What hope do we have of solving problems with this kind of addled thinking and the call to inaction (prayer).

“He gave free will to Adam and Eve”. How’d that work out?

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» RE: I don't Posted by: LPB
» RE: I don't Posted by: kww355
» RE: I don't Posted by: jacqueli
I was saying Boo-urns.
Posted by: Spot on Sep 10, 2005 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious freedom must exist as both freedom for the individual to believe and act in a way according to their own ideology AND as a guarantee of protection against those actions for people of unlike mind. "Freedom of religion" is not freedom for one person to foist their beliefs on other people, but a protection against that very same action!

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» RE: I was saying Boo-urns. Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: I was saying Boo-urns. Posted by: ssegallmd
Bill Moyers
Posted by: louhou on Sep 10, 2005 2:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill, I thought you were an awesome writer in 1953 when we attended NTSC. You were in the dorm room immediately below mine, by the way. Anyway, I am so proud of you for having the intelligence and the courage to speak out with such lucidity in these times.

Your explanations provide answers to several questions which have puzzled me, particularly as to what motivates people who follow the neo-con administration in spite of no logical reasons for doing so!

Please keep speaking and writing.

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agitator church and state
Posted by: eileenflmng on Sep 10, 2005 3:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The gospel Christ preached was "FEAR NOT"

This Admisistration has preached The Doctrine of Fear and prescribed the narcotic of consumerism to put American citizens back to sleep after that day four years ago when the world stood still and we all WOKE UP to the fact that the USA is not invincible nor immune from misery and terror.

Where we went wrong four years ago, was we did not STOP and REFLECT as a nation on our governments policies that led to so much hate and evil that one could cold bloodedly murder innocent lives.

This fourth anniversary of that day, we gaze in abject horror at the soul of our bleeding nation and at the misery of thousands of American refugees.

Forty years ago MLK warned that "Any nation that continues to raise the Defense budget while cutting programs to the most needy, is a nation approaching spiritual death."

WAKE UP America, our governments policies chose to build empire abroad and ignore securing the home land on the home land.

We have lots of religion in our nation but not enough spirituality.
Religion provides the rules and doctrines, but it is our spirit that connects us to God within all people and all Creation.

"The Revolution starts now..."-Steve Earle

www.wearewideawake.org

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thank you Bill!
Posted by: beetruetoyou on Sep 10, 2005 4:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill, I came to know you through my father-in-law, a history professor from Noonan, GA, who made it a point to watch Walter Cronkite EVERY NIGHT. Through him I was introduced to you and even though he has passed on I am so grateful for him connecting me with another way of thinking. Thank God, once again, for your insight, your brilliance, your compasson and concern. I consider you one of our true prophets of the day. I really wish you would come back to PBS (or maybe even the major networks!!!!) Your voice needs to be heard again. You are a prophet of our day. Come back!! I miss you! Trying to keep the faith in VA.

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TRUE CHRISTIAN ETHICS CONSISTS OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AND CARING FOR THE POOR
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Sep 10, 2005 7:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live in Houston, TX and I hear on the TV many Houstonian's fear of people who are now pouring into our city. I love Bill Moyers and my Friday night PBS watching has been ruined when he left. I am a night owl and I have watched from time to time a U of H class on Christian ethics. The Old Testament was based on taking care of the poor, the old and the sick before you took care of yourself or so the teacher stated. He said the so called Christians of the day, neither quote this or to they remember Jesus saying the same thing. Jesus whole ministry was based on loving and caring for others.

I am one of those who fears Christians of the bible belt. Their negative energy reaches out to destroy anything or anyone who does not follow them blindly. I follow a natural, inner spiritual tradition of the Native Americans that honors all things all living beings. I have been so afraid of what is coming for years now. I cried both times Bush was elected. I never thought one man could destroy 30 years of environmental laws all by himself. There are many good people, who fear what is coming and Bill Moyers helps to remind us, we need to do something besides be afraid.

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Not what we say, but what we do.
Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 10, 2005 11:14 PM   
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My distant religious ancestors were those Puritans who drove Roger Williams into the wilderness of now Rhode Island. And drowned women accused of witchery and burned and tortured. Yet that same history also led later to the Bill of Rights and the abolition of slavery. All of that not only in the name of God but of the same God.

None could ever withstand the full presence of the divine. And beware, as is always the case, those who anoint themselves or are elevated by fools. As they say, "The devil loves quoting scripture."

So are there no distinctions between religions or among those who claim inspiration? "The gods we worship write their names on our faces," Emerson wrote. Always look to the fruits.

Our faith is that it is not yet too late. And that, despite our passion for drama and histrionics, when roused from our stupor, goodwill can find a way.

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» Puritans Posted by: Olympiada
» Quite educated! Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Quite educated! Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Quite educated! Posted by: Olympiada
Time for some heavy lifting!!!
Posted by: didjeri_voodoo on Sep 11, 2005 12:54 PM   
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Damn! Where do I begin? Just like when I read "The Power of Myth" (the whole 8 hours of interviews between Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell as a book) I was struck by the TRUTH of the matter. So damn true!
I've been sitting on my dead ass, playing online chess games, smoking pot, going to class, and hangin' out with friends, never giving a second thought to the brewing, roiling, cesspool of a religious clusterfuck that America is getting itself in to. OK, I did give it a second thought, but I didn't actually get up and do something about it, like I should have. Man!
I still remember the day when I realized that merely talking about big corrupt happenin's only frustrates and angers me deeper towards vegetative insanity. I realized that day that we have both a mind AND a body. Instead of always talking about shit, I realized I had a body too. The shit is about to hit the fan, and it's time something be done.
Onward!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Bill Moyers
Posted by: Char on Sep 11, 2005 1:24 PM   
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Thank you Bill for all that you say. You are the moral equivalent in journalism as Jimmy Carter is in politics. How people who claim to be Christians can be so hateful is beyond my ken. This administration seems to be more and more like the government in Germany in the 30's. God help us. Bill, come back to PBS. Miss you terribly

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agitator church and state
Posted by: eileenflmng on Sep 11, 2005 1:32 PM   
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It is exactly 4 years, 4 hours and 11 miutes ago that I learned of THAT DAY that stopped the world.

A few days after 9/11, President Bush went on TV and told US to go shopping if we wanted to help.

Some of us rejected this Administrations narcotic of consumerism and its Doctrine of Fear.
When people are afraid, they are easy to control.
The opposite of faith is NOT doubt.
The opposite of faith is fear.
The gospel Christ taught was:FEAR NOT!

Until we understand the 'others' world view that perceives the USA as imperialistic and arrogant:
and cling to the fallacy that WAR is not the most extreme form of terrorism, the cycle of violence begating violence will continue until we annhiliate civilization or WAKE UP and CHANGE COURSE!

A trillion USA tax dollars a year funds an out of control military budget while people died of thirst and hunger on the streets of New Orleans.

What has happended to the soul of America?

I have one answer: we are in the midst of a clash of religion in the USA.
There are two kinds of Christianity out there-
One worships a Punitive Father God that demands obedience, demonizes women, gays, science, DEEP THOUGHT and reflection.

The other intuits God is as much He as She, as much Mommy as Daddy.
read more: A NEW REFORMATION
www.WisdomUniversity.org

-e.
www.wearewideawake.org

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Free will?
Posted by: GinaDCG on Sep 11, 2005 2:43 PM   
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When I hold conversations with most of my fundamentalist friends the notable absence in our discourse (on their part) is Free Will. Most fundamentalists are taught, in effect, that faith in Jesus Christ conveys upon the believer a "Get Out of Consequences Free" Card. I would suggest, on a personal level, that some head-way can be gained in one-on-one discussions if one focuses on the concept of Free Will and how Free Will must operate in any Christian belief system.

I mean -- come on Pat! We're not zoo animals here! The attacks of 9/11 had more to do with the consequences of George Bush's refusal to honor Bill Clinton's fear of Bin Laden then with God's personal wrath at the US. And the disaster in New Orleans has more to do with our free will choice as a society to NOT build better levies and to NOT make attempts to reduce CO2 emissions then with abortion clinics in New Orleans.

But again, -- I have had some success with committed fundamentalist friends by pointing to specific, personal examples -- such as the death of a local high school student: "I guess it was God's Will that this boy die." "No! " I shouted, "It is NOT God's Will that young men die at age 18! Rather, the leukemia he contracted was prbably due to someone else's arrogant belief that the PCBs that were dumped onto what later became this young man's yard would not have any bad effect on children who may later play there. God gave that old chemical company the right to be arrogant and ignorant, and to do bad things as a consquence of that arrogant and ignorance. Just as God gave the Nazis the right to do horrendous things to the Jews in their midst. Free will is an awesome and aweful gift that humans usually misuse. But don't go blaming our misuse of God's gift on God Himself. God's own son came down to give us some pointers on how to make good choices. And I recall the strategy laid out in Jesus's words and life included humility, love and charity."

-- just wanted to share an approach, that, at least once, seemed to open a small window into a "true believer's" mind.

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» Moyers' Christian realism Posted by: Sojourner
» Awesome approach Gina Posted by: Olympiada
Read "Collapse" by Jared Diamond
Posted by: StoneRiley on Sep 11, 2005 8:30 PM   
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If you've gotten this far you must be a good reader. Try "Collapse" by Jared Diamond. The subtitle is "How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed". It's several hundred pages of brilliant insight and analysis by an old life siences professor who is also a world class eco activist and who has now written two great human history books.
Here it is on Amazon: Collapse by Jared Diamond
Also: I'm a painter looking for a good political/spiritual use of my art. Let me know if you can offer any proposals. Please contact through my website, not on this thread. www.yessy.com/stoneriley

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Two more puzzle pieces
Posted by: Daniel Boone on Sep 11, 2005 11:05 PM   
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Mr. Moyers has brilliantly identified and exposed aspects of our society that have grown dangerously out of balance. For more on the same topic, check out Eisenhower's farewell address (with the famous warning about the confluence of the military and industry (easily found on the web-- Google Eisenhower farewell address)), and consider the fact that Ike was a military man and a Republican, making these observations over 40 years ago. Second, check out a new Canadian political party that is fielding candidates in BC and daring to connect up a lot of the dots Mr. Moyers laid out: worklessparty.org is their website.

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Mammon Worshippers
Posted by: shangrilalad on Sep 12, 2005 7:52 AM   
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The Rabid Religious Right are incorrectly identified as the Christian Right every day in the media, but they are not Christians. Religious Fundamentalists worship the vengeful God of the Old Testament, not the loving God of the New Testament. They prefer the harsh teachings of the Old Testament and heap contempt on Jesus’ teaching. They cloak themselves in Christianity to attack and refute Christian values.

The Rabid Religious Right worships mammon, the god of intolerance, selfishness, greed and hate. They are materialistic idolaters who worship only their own self-interest.

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» Interesting point shangrilalad Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Mammon Worshippers Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» Rapture Right Posted by: kww355
» Thanks Adam Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Perceptions change but the truth remains the same
Posted by: metamind on Sep 12, 2005 8:01 AM   
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The Republicans practice "reality as perception." So if they want
us to believe a "War on Terror" is justified against Islamic terrorists, then they only need to create the perception that the terrorists were Islamic fundamentalists.


But what if that is merely a perception rather than the truth?
What if the neo-fascists in the Bush cabal actually engineered
and executed the 9/11 attacks? How does that affect our
debate here about the freedom of our soul?

There is an abundance of evidence that the buildings at the world trade center were collapsed with explosives, particularly building #7 which wasn't even hit by an airplane! ( http://physics911.net )

What's the truth? How does the truth affect this discussion?
Do you see where I'm going with this? We're talking about religious freedom when we should be focused on the terrorists in our midst. It has very little to do with religion and a great deal to do with control ... of everyone and everything ... a global hegemony built on the domination by money and military.


Please go back to square one:

SEEK the truth.

SPEAK the truth.

SUPPORT the truth.


It's the Republicans who are behind this, whether they were aware of it from the beginning or whether they have just recently begun to suspect the truth. Their silent consent is what drives this insanity. Our silent dissent is what permits it to continue.

It's all US! We are the problem. We are the solution.


Steve Moyer
http://stevemoyer.us

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The Danger within....
Posted by: The Butcher on Sep 12, 2005 8:39 AM   
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all contained in many of your threads

http://www.reandev.com/taliban/

The American Taliban.

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Fighting Fear
Posted by: Riverside on Sep 12, 2005 8:44 AM   
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Everything Mr. Moyers relates is most relevant to what is happening here in the United States and in many other places worldwide. To free those who are now captives of zealot power we must find ways to help them overcome their fear. This is a fear that has been created by the twisted scriptures the zealots use to force these good hearted people to ignore their own common sense. They fear a damnation by a deity that exists only in the minds and liturgy of these theocrats.

We must renew our awareness that these are good hearted, well intentioned fellow citizens who have been wooed into a belief based on fear of dreadful reprisal. This fear deadens their hearing and cloaks their vision so that they ignore or deny the warnings made by people like Bill Moyers. Therefore, we must go forth in kindness and gentleness and help each soul regain the sweet, sweet joy of true religious freedom. This is the first step toward saving this great nation of ours.

Don't wait, start now. Each minute lost spells a growing danger for all of us. Remember, this time God is depending upon us, rather than we upon Him. We must not deny His call for help.

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» Strong words riverside Posted by: Olympiada
Olympiada
Posted by: kww355 on Sep 12, 2005 10:46 AM   
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You've asked u