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Rights and Liberties

Readers Write: What Have We Learned from the Vick Case?

By AlterNet Staff, AlterNet. Posted August 30, 2007.


AlterNet readers respond to the Vick controversy and talk about the confluence of race, animal rights, masculinity, and questions of fairness and due process.
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The Michael Vick case triggered a vigorous debate within the U.S. progressive movement that could be seen unfolding here on AlterNet. In the controversy we saw a confluence of race, animal rights, masculinity, and questions of fairness and due process -- elements amplified by million-dollar contracts and intense mainstream media coverage.

These varied factors prompted different takes on how to conceptualize the Vick case, most notably in Sandra Kobrin's "Beat a Woman? Play On! Beat a Dog? You're Gone" and Earl Ofari Hutchinson's column, "The Crucifixion of Michael Vick." These commentaries then caused varied reactions from readers either rejecting the perspectives given, applauding them, or offering their own.

A general response to Kobrin's article was that the comparison -- specifically between how men convicted of spousal abuse are treated and Vick -- was, on its face, invalid. A reader writing under the handle, EKSwitaj called it a "false dichotomy" arguing that people "don't have to choose between anger [sic] about the torture of animals and the mistreatment of women" and that we "should be outraged [sic] when any living being is made to feel unnecessary pain."

PopRox80 went further, stating, "I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why one human's life is more important than all the plants and animals and insects of this world. All things are equal, and should be treated as such." Poster vasumurti said, "The article is speciesist." At the heart of such arguments is the question, "Are animals equal?" -- in that, should they be accorded rights within the framework created for humans?

Reacting to Hutchinson's comparisons to a lack of anger on issues like Darfur, posters like bg41 said those issues distracted from the one at hand. "Genocide and wars are obviously among the most despicable legacies of humankind. No one here debates that," said bg41. "But pointing to the most horrible things in the world and then saying that what Michael Vick is accused of pales in comparison is just stupid. You can downplay the importance of ANY crime by doing that, but you've accomplished nothing of substance."

Others, like goeswithness, felt that drawing a parallel between women's rights and animal rights was inconsistent because, "A dog has absolutely no choice in how it's [sic] raised and who its owner is. Women do have that choice, at the outset anyhow." Doodahman chimed in, "Women are awesome, but dogs are perfect."

More learned readers preferred to draw a connection between feminism and animal rights, saying that we need to think of the way in which we treat living beings generally. Beatlefancb said:

Animal abuse and violence against people are directly linked. Animal abuse is considered to be one of the leading indicators of violent criminal behavior.

A study of battered women in Utah found that 71% reported that their animals had been threatened, harmed, or killed by their abusers.

Violence against animals desensitizes people to violence in general. This facilitates violence against people.

Many responses charged that outraged individuals were hypocrites by treating dogs differently from other animals. Cinattra wrote:

Yeah, we don't eat dogs, but other cultures do ... We hunt for sport stacking the cards against the animals by using high powered scopes and other tricks to make killing them convenient."

There is a cultural arrogance about America that is hypocrisy filled and leads it to distort some moral and ethical issues and to totally treat others less seriously or not treat them at all.

In a similar vein, cheressemm gives the example:

You can teach a pig to fetch a newspaper, and we still treat animals horribly in our current food-supply system," telling readers to "look up factory farming on YouTube, go to farmsanctuary.org [sic], and read up about sow gestation crates and current slaughterhouse practices, which are dangerous to the humans who work there (the most dangerous job in the U.S.) -- mostly illegal immigrants -- and horrendously cruel to the animals that are killed by the thousands upon the hour ... read about pigs that are not even stunned properly [sic] before being dunked in vats of boiling water ... and then tell me that you don't see the hypocrisy of which this article speaks when it comes to how much we supposedly love animals and don't want to see them abused.

Other posters like Bambi maintained that there was a difference. "Eating meat and taking responsibility for where that meat comes from has nothing to do with animal abuse and cruelty; it's ridiculous and shows a lack of awareness and intelligence to make a connection between the two."

As Kobrin drew a comparison between abuse of women, others readers wanted to take a racial lens, arguing that abusers of similar crimes are treated differently because of racial differences. The reader sspsllc wrote:


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VICK IS ONLY "SORRY" AS A LAST DEFENSE IS OFFENSIVE!
Posted by: kunndunn on Aug 30, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The whole cultural morales nowdays, from politicans to celebraties is to "Say you are sorry," and that is the best offense as a defense. "Saying you are sorry" is the old alcoholic mouthing that is disingenuous at best. Being truly sorry for one's actions is, "I have a failing, and this is what I intend to do in order to make sure it doesn't ever happen again, and I hope that someday you may find it in your heart to forgive me for my failings. Vick is severely addicted to the cruelty that comes with power (money coupled with prestige) and only long-term, intensive therapy can ever redeem him.

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Crime vs. CRIME
Posted by: donal1944 on Aug 30, 2007 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Vick is sick, cruel, debased and deserves harsh punishment. That said it seems to me that his skin color has more that a little to do with how this story played out. George Bush is guilty, with Cheney, Powell, Rice, Rumsfield and Gates of the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens and resistance fighters and the deaths of nearly 4000 GI's since the invasion and oil piracy began. Has he been impeached, convicted and tossed out of office? Has an International War Crimes Tribunal been convened? Should Democrats like Hillary Clinton who supported the war until it got unpopular also be called to account?
Vick needs to be punished for his crimes, but his offenses are negligible compared to those of George Bush and the congress members who were afraid to muzzle him.

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» RE: Crime vs. CRIME Posted by: Poe
» RE: Crime vs. CRIME Posted by: militaryhater
» RE: Crime vs. CRIME Posted by: Poe
» RE: Crime vs. CRIME Posted by: militaryhater
Re: Animal rights
Posted by: russianblue1 on Aug 30, 2007 7:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone very wise (Ghandi?) once stated: "A society can be judged by the way it treats its animals."

Apply the Vick facts to the above statement and you may find the felony charge to be entirely appropriate.

I ask: After thousands of years of various societies, are humans "civilized" yet?

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» RE: e: Animal rights Posted by: cheressemm
» RE: e: Animal rights Posted by: TheLimit
vick case is not about racism at all
Posted by: EasterBunny on Aug 30, 2007 7:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the proof is that if he were a white athlete the public reaction would have been the same or worse. in fact no one would be defending him. i can't think of a single person i know who would defend a dog torturer or try to minimize his crimes just because he was white. what this case has shown me is that there are some african americans (e.g., Earl Ofari Hutchinson) who just lose their bearings when a black celebrity is accused of a heinous crime, in that respect, the Vick case is like OJ. i seriously doubt that if a white athlete had been the dog torturer, ANYBODY would have been making references to Darfur and genocide, etc. it's a sign of sheer desperation to make such specious arguments.

Bottom line: Vick is guilty. Rich people with high priced lawyers don't plead guilty unless they have to. it's not about race, it's about cruelty, gambling, and the law. maybe some other athletes will learn a lesson from this and clean up THEIR acts.

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» Proof? What proof? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Proof? What proof? Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Proof? What proof? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Proof? What proof? Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Proof? What proof? Posted by: EasterBunny
Dog lessons
Posted by: Quasar on Aug 30, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems to me that the lesson to be learned here is that Michael Vick has shown us not the underbelly of what he is all about, but the underbelly of what we are all about. We are a culture of violence, cruelty and visciousness and no one can touch American ingenuity when it comes to dressing it up so that not even grandma minds getting a little blodd splattered on her apron every Sunday. Vick is paid millions not for being an athlete so much as a modern day gladiator. He's a fighter. He's our pitbull.

This is more than an (in)convenient metaphor and the tragedy of Michael Vick has yet to be played out, but I will venture that in short shrift he will be torn to shreds in the arena of public opinion; beaten to death, if you will, against the blodd drenched floor of righteous indignation.

The irony is that Vick believed he was the master of his world, when we up in the stands world know better. Our verdict? Thumbs down.

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» RE: Dog lessons Posted by: Morell
Six dogs vs. billions of cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chicken, turkeys, fish...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Aug 30, 2007 7:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good people who care about ANIMAL WELFARE for companion animals (pets) must consider the next logical and philosophically consistent jump to compassion for ***all*** beings.

All animals feel pain and fear. Cats and dogs are not supreme in the animal kingdom in regards to suffering.

Consider the few dogs killed by Vick and his crew vs. the billions of cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chicken, turkeys, fish killed each year for your plate and for medical research.

The greatest of animal suffering can be alleviated in the kitchen and in the vivisection laboratories.

Choose vegan.

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» surely you jest..... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: surely you jest..... Posted by: cheressemm
» RE: surely you jest..... Posted by: goeswithness
» RE: surely you jest..... Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: surely you jest..... Posted by: CyberBrook
» Encino Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Stunned
Posted by: dharmatrainwreck on Aug 30, 2007 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am stunned that the NAACP would come to the defense of this idiot; he killed dogs in the name of sport. This is indefensible. When the NAACP champions these sorts of people, they lose credibility with everyone. This has nothing to do with RACE, but rather the nature of an idiot. He wiped his butt with millions upon millions in player money and endorsement fees - what an idiot. How about supporting causes that are just and not making an idiot the poster child for racial inequality? Do you think anyone else would have been given a break under similar circumstances?

Where does it end ...

Des

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» RE: Stunned Posted by: Enigma
» RE: Stunned Posted by: EasterBunny
» killilng for sport Posted by: veggiegrrrl
We learned what's always been true.
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 30, 2007 8:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Humans have faults. Give them enough money and privlege and these faults become acted out. History as shown us countless times how great wealth has wrought more harm than good.
People with alot of money and the security it can buy have always engaged in acts most of us would find distasteful. Such is the illusion of wealth. It makes you think you have power. The illusion of power make you think you can have anything you want. Because you have the money to get it,you can find the folks that will help you get whatever you want. Supporting the illusion of power. It's a dance done by many who think money is power.
JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS WEALTHY;
Does'nt make you better than others
Does'nt make you of good charactor
Does'nt make you worthy of respect
Does'nt mean you're smarter
Does'nt make you more important
Does'nt make you elite
Does'nt make you superior
Mr. Vick was'nt alone in this gig. Other well to do folks were in on it too. They are also in on things we'll never know about.
If you think about it,just how far away from Mr. Vick are we? We buy the products,get the gear,proudly tailgate and cheer loudly as men of great size and strength smash the hell out of eachother over a ball,order the fight on pay-per-view,cheer the new boxing Champion. maybe we're different because we don't kill the players that are'nt performing up to snuff or maybe the only reason we're different is because we can only afford the 'approved' violence and depravity.
We're all human so on some levels we're all the same. For some reason though,when money,in large sums,gets involved, we become the worst Creation has to offer.

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I am so sorry Alternet-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 30, 2007 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that I called this guy a 'thug'.

What was I thinking? I must really hate black people.
Yep, that must be it.

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» RE: I am so sorry Alternet- Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: I am so sorry Alternet- Posted by: Enigma
» RE: I am so sorry Alternet- Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: I am so sorry Alternet- Posted by: Tacticsb
» RE: I am so sorry Alternet- Posted by: DivaMJB
What we have learned from Vick......
Posted by: tap17x on Aug 30, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..........is that sports build character. (Gag, snort!) Take OJ Simpson for example. Please. He got off because a bunch of retarded jurors didn't know what "reasonable doubt" is and because of today's disgusting pandemic of celebrity worship. Vick is another two-bit example of the fact that people who make their living being brutal are likely to be brutal in their private lives. Duh.

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animal rights: a progressive cause
Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 30, 2007 10:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been vegetarian since 1982. I attended my first anti-vivisection protest in the spring of 1985, at UC San Diego, when anti-apartheid demonstrations were taking place. I first got interested in promoting vegetarianism after reading John Robbins' Diet for a New America (1987). Nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, it makes veganism seem as mainstream as recycling.

Half the water consumed in the U.S. goes to irrigate land growing feed and fodder for livestock. Huge amounts of water are used to wash away their excrement. U.S. livestock produce 20 times as much excrement as does the entire human population; creating sewage which is 10 to several hundred times more concentrated than raw domestic sewage. Animal wastes cause 10 times more water pollution than does the U.S. human population; the meat industry causes 3 times as much harmful organic water pollution than the rest of the nation's industries combined. Meat producers are the number one industrial polluters in our nation, contributing to half the water pollution in the U.S.

Joanna Macy, author of Despair and Personal Power in the Nuclear Age, depicts the advantages of America moving towards a vegan diet in her foreword to Diet for a New America:

"The effects on our physical health are immediate. The incidence of cancer and heart attack, the nation's biggest killers, drops precipitously. So do many other diseases now demonstrably and causally linked to consumption of animal proteins and fats, such as osteoporosis...

"The social, ecological, and economic consequences, as we Americans turn away from animal food products, are equally remarkable. We find that the grain we previously fed to fatten livestock can now feed five times the U.S. population; so we have become able to alleviate malnutrition and hunger on a worldwide scale...

"The great forests of the world, that we had been decimating for grazing purposes, begin to grow again. Oxygen-producing trees are no longer sacrificed for cholesterol-producing steaks.

"The water crisis eases. As we stop raising and grinding up cattle for hamburgers, we discover that ranching and farm factories had been the major drain on our water resources. The amount now available for irrigation and hydroelectric power doubles. Meanwhile, the change in diet frees over 90% of the fossil fuel previously used to produce food. With this liberation of water energy and fossil fuel energy, our reliance on oil imports declines, as does the rationale for building nuclear power plants..."

Joanna Macy admits, "This scenario is wildly, absurdly utopian. It is also clearly the way we are meant to live, built to live." What could possibly make it a reality? "It is this very book!"

Paul McCartney says, "If anyone wants to save the planet, all they have to do is just stop eating meat. That's the single most important thing you could do. It's staggering when you think about it. Vegetarianism takes care of so many things in one shot: ecology, famine, cruelty. Let's do it! Going veggie is the single best idea for the new century."

The number of animals killed for food in the U.S. is 70 times larger than the number killed in laboratories, 30 times larger than the number killed by hunters and trappers, and 500 times larger than the number killed in pounds. If we really want to end animal cruelty, veg*ism would be a good place to start!

Roberta Kalechofsky of Jews for Animal Rights says:

"Merely by ceasing to eat meat. Merely by practicing restraint. We have the power to end a painful industry. We do not have to bear arms to end this evil. We do not have to contribute money. We do not have to sit in jail or go to meetings or demonstrations or engage in acts of civil disobedience... here is an action every mortal can perform--surely it is not too difficult!"

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What have 'We' learned here?..Gee I dunno..if the subject of the query is some of the elements of
Posted by: ekipnrut on Aug 30, 2007 11:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
responsible ,fact checked candid journalism...I guess the answer appears to be: Absolutely nothing. (Based on THIS article)
On the other hand if it (that learned ) is sought in the nature of comments grounded in fact and logic given even handed app-
lication ..again: 'Butkus'.
Hutchinson starts out with an absurd 'defense ' of Vick, replete with ridiculous non sequiturs and vain attempts to marginalize, defend or downplay what Vick did. This is followed by a second Vick article in much the same vein. Nearly all of the equally ridiculous comments from BOTH black and white posters fell into one of two categories: A) There was too MUCH outrage over what Vick was alleged to have done (to DOGS) because that level of emotionally based altruistic empathy can and should be ONLY exhibited when humans are abused, i.e. to express revulsion of animal abuse either forecloses adequate consideration of or implies indifference to human suffering. Why my emphasis on 'dogs'. That's because things
get a little weird here with the 'commentators'. Some argued that there was an excess of outrage expressed precisely because the issue of all those OTHER animals slaughtered for food wasn't given its due...the outrage being excessively concerned with one of our favorite species of domestic pet.
Now some blacks used this to counter that meat eating white Vick detractors were hypocrites,with mainly white 'PETAphiles' arguing the 'excess' of concentration on dogs, taking time to make a few adventitious racist kicks of opportunity to the head (Vick's). Rejection of the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of vicarious sadistic infliction of cruelty upon animals-from 'caged hunts' to dog(bull/cock) fighting-is a separate and distinct position from the Vegan stance. Obviously the latter is included in the former (psychopath exceptions notwithstanding). But the other way round simply isn't true, as a matter of logic ;they may become vegan..they are not there yet. But the comments from
the 'too much' group were almost without exception specious
attempts to involve other issues in the Vick thing with no real foundation in fact or logic. B) The other bunch..those who felt
that 'too LITTLE outrage' about Vick had been vented; for the most part their remarks were a litany of inane ,hysterical RACIST garbage that attempted to demonize and villify Vick,
far,far beyond the admittedly disgusting nature of the facts as
alleged and subsequently admitted to (at least in nontrivoial part if not in whole) by Vick . The somewhat intriguing issue of dog fighting as symptomatic of a debased and deteriorated black 'cultural' ethos...that this type of activity, to the extent that it is to be construed as appurtenant to the 'hip hop' so called 'culture', further demonstrates the intellectually bankrupt farce of THAT nonsense masquerading as 'culture'...
that responsible black leadership should be DENOUNCING this madness...well discussion of those issues doesn't serve the MSM ,including its 'progressive' avatars, agenda of keepin' em' 'doo-ragged' and self debasing violence prone 'minstrels'....in
their place.

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A few points:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 30, 2007 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This story has at least brought the ugly business of dog fighting to the top of the news. See recent BBC coverage of dog fighting.

All humans who engage in dog fighting should be coated in blood and gore and thrown into a pit with the very dogs they've been abusing. That would be justice, wouldn't it?

Pit bulls are just as pleasant as any other dog - but some people abuse them constantly in order to turn them into vicious fighters.

The real story here seems to be how everyone has tried to turn this story into a platform for their own personal cause - whether it be abuse of women or racisim in the media. It's a shallow attempt to hop on the coattails of a 'major media story' - you know, the typical distractive BS that our rotten corporate media loves to run in place of real analysis.

The corporate media would far rather whip up this story than say, cover the daily destruction and slaughter in Iraq (coverage of that has been dropping steadily). How many women have been killed in Iraq as a result of this war? What racist tendencies are involved in the slaughter of the 'camel jockey ragheads' in Iraq, to quote that atrocious proto-fascist nightmare known as Ann Coulter?

Wake up and focus on the real issues, and quit copying the corporate media fluff program.

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» RE: A few points: Posted by: Enigma
» RE: A few points: Posted by: Morell
Every tool is a weapon - if you hold it right
Posted by: darkgrrrl on Aug 30, 2007 3:00 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blood "sports" such as dogfighting are commonplace in many parts of the world, even where illegal. That means tens, or hundreds, of thousands of people all over the world who get their kicks watching two animals brutally kill each other.

I don't understand, in any way shape or form, how a person can be anything less than appalled by this. It is hard for me to imagine that anyone participating in such things is not a psychopath, a monster devoid of empathy and conscience.

Yet this heinous thing isn't even a felony in every state.

So then what? Somebody decides dogfighting is vogue, not to mention there's money to be made on the gambling. A society already euthanizing millions of homeless domestic animals annually is deluged by overbreeding of dogs for the meat grinder of the pit. They live abuse, torture, and pain - and all possible roads lead to an early and terrible death. Thousands more end up in the pound, euthanized because they can't be adopted.

And the lucky ones, who actually have someone to care about them?

Much hype has swirled around the "pit bull" for years. The term "pit bull" is a misnomer. It's a generic term referring to a general group of breeds and not to any one actual breed of dog. But the real fact that virtually any animal that's abused enough will become aggressive and violent hasn't stopped breed-specific legislation in some areas trying to ban the breeds. It hasn't stopped insurance companies from dropping coverage for owners of "violent" breeds. It hasn't stopped the media from constantly reinforcing stereotypes and myths about these dogs, instilling paranoia among neighbors. So it becomes more and more difficult to provide a home to such a dog, although there are so many in need.

Ultimately, humans have created a horrific, violent subculture and created many, many dogs to perpetuate it. Those countless dogs suffer and die horribly for those humans' fun and profit. Fighting dogs escape and injure or kill people and their pets. The stigma grows. The stigma adds to the vogue. The bets are laid down, the blood spatters, the money rolls in. The cycle continues.

What of Michael Vick? Dogfighting has been around for centuries before him and will be around long after he's gone. He is simply one of many vicious, brutal thugs involved in this; he just happens to be famous, and he happened to get caught. I heard the public apology in which he expressed his "deepest apologies to everybody out in there in the world who was affected by this whole situation" and his "immature acts." The word "immature" is woefully, laughably inadequate to describe any of this. I noticed the lack of any acknowledgment of the living, feeling dogs who suffered and died at his behest; disposable commodities in a disposable world. Vick's dogfighting enterprise ran for several years, and it would have gone on indefinitely had authorities not intervened. Vick isn't sorry for what he did; he's sorry he got caught.

Our culture is so steeped in violence, so skewed in its priorities and values, that this is just one of many symptoms of a diseased national conscience. Iraq, the sex trade, factory farming - I could list any number of ways in which we subjugate, exploit, and abuse each other as well as other beings for selfish gain while rationalizing and disavowing our way out of any twinges of conscience. How do you instill values of empathy and compassion in a selfish society fixated on money and power?

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So what HAVE we learned from the Vick case?
Posted by: hagwind on Aug 30, 2007 6:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is actually an interesting and important question. Most of us activists and theorizers tend to focus on one or a very few issues -- for obvious reasons: there are only so many hours in a day, or cells in a brain. Every once in a while a major case comes along that involves a range of issues (or "causes"), and we have to deal with all of them at once. We have the opportunity to listen to the perspectives of people whose priorities are different from ours, from immediate (occasionally intemperate) responses to thoughtful analyses.

I'm not a fan of professional sports, I've never watched a football game (live or televised) all the way through, and I don't follow the mainstream media. When people I know start talking about an event, a movie, a book, a TV show, whatever, then I go look it up so I can understand what they're talking about. The first I heard of the Michael Vick case was here on AlterNet.

So what have I learned, from the stories about the case, and the articles posted here, and the comments on the articles? I didn't learn anything about human callousness and depravity that I didn't already know -- though if a woman had been doing what Michael Vick was charged with doing, I would have been horrified. As a white feminist in her mid-fifties, I've long taken it for granted that race, sex, and class suffuse media coverage and "public opinion" about just about everything. I have learned that some white people who post to AlterNet don't assume, as I do, that race affects popular perception of most things.

I've known for decades that it's more mainstream and less controversial to oppose cruelty to animals than it is to oppose cruelty to, say, women or people of color or poor people. What I've gained from responses to the Vick case is more insight into why this is so. Animals are defenseless against human power, animals are innocent -- these things I already knew. But, in addition, animals can't speak in their own behalf. They can't contradict our human opinions about what is best for their welfare the way that (for example) a woman can tell a man, "No, that's not 'what women want.'"

What does this remind me of? Fetuses. "The unborn." The innocent, defenseless entities that the right-to-lifers are committed to protecting. No, I'm not about to become anti-choice, but that's what I've gained from the Vick case: some new insight into the passionate commitment of the right-to-life movement. I can't say that I'm especially comfortable with my new understanding.

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What have we learned? Nothing.
Posted by: xi_people on Aug 30, 2007 7:01 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What exactly does an entire society "learn" from any singular event? Nothing. What have "we" learned in the aftermath of the Mike Vick case? Nothing. And why does the writer feel the need to pose the question as though all of us were in kindergarten?

The "sport" of dogfighting is ancient, and unfortunately it will continue as long as there are people who bet on it, or like to see it. If everyone was as outraged as many pretended to be with Vick, then it would have died out a long time ago.

Let's face it, this society is steeped in violence and death. The collective skewering of Vick was hypocrisy taken to an absurd level. A good portion of it was racially-motivated and anyone who says it wasn't had better get a clue.

I find it most interesting that the more than 1 million Iraqis that have been killed by the American military did not receive even on iota of the sympathy that several dead dogs did. Not that I condone what Vick did -- it was unconscionable -- but I think the comparison is both apt and telling.

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DivaMJB
Posted by: DivaMJB on Aug 30, 2007 10:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THUG is the new N-word. Enjoy using it because you know you can't use the other word without catching the wrath of a lot of people at the least...or catching a beat down at the other extreme.

Tupac had THUG LIFE tattoed across his stomach. ..know what he said the acronym meant to him???...
The Hate You Gave Little Infants F***s Everybody

Keep throwing around the term Thug about a man who built his mother and her fellow parishoners a church, about a man who gave countless to the underpriviledged in GA and VA about a man who opened a wine bar in the upcoming urban neighborhood of SW Atlanta instead of Buckhead like many of the developers wanted him to, keep talking about the man who the only familiarity you have with comes from the same Mainstream Media (MSM) who you discount when it comes to EVERY other issue sites like Alternet cover.

I will keep repeating when it comes to certain issues the progressive community has a HUGE colorful deficiency. I see racism in so many of these comments and I implore you to at least read Tim Wise on race. And at least understand this sports world that oddly penetrated the MSM with this story (read up on the disgustingly inept NFLPA, that's their union, read up on Leonard Little, Ray Lewis, Jonathan Babineux, a bunch of wife beaters and a host of others - but Athletes AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART - do not committ more crime than the general pop). Read Bill Rhoden's "40 Million Dollar Slave" or really....stay out of this story.

I will not put the disclaimer up that all of us have been forced to. It's none of your business whether I have or love dogs. The fact that any kind of cruelty is wrong is self-evident. Isn't that why we all object to Iraq, Darfur and the brilliantly efficient economic foundation of this country, chattel slavery??

People are still up in arms about this issue because you all are still afraid, with all your progressiveness, you're still afraid of that man with the braids (he was forced to yell Toby and cut them though) and tats (tattooes) and hip-hop music and a culture that more closely resembles those left on their rooftops in New Orleans than anything most of you are familiar with.

There were more PETA protestors at Atlanta Falcons training camp in the early afternoon...after traditional working hours....more Vick supporters.

Due Process is selectively sacred in this country as are most things. How many of you all reacted to the Duke Lacrosse alleged rape scandal???........yeah, I called for Due Process then too. It is precious. And I hope you all realize there was NO WAY he could've gotten a fair trial.

I dare any of you to erase your preconcieved notions and come back to this story from the begining. I dare you.

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» BULL! Posted by: EasterBunny
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human rights, animals rights, social justice, environmental sustainability
Posted by: CyberBrook on Aug 31, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]


human rights, animals rights, social justice, environmental sustainability...it's all vital and intimately connected.

Eco-Eating: Eating as if the Earth Matters
www.brook.com/veg


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meat
Posted by: lindalee on Aug 31, 2007 10:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please....there are humane ways to kill any animal. After the cow is dead, it doesn't know it's being disemboweled.
Face it folks, people are not going to stop eating meat - but we can force and encourage humane slaughtering methods as well as pushing for animals to live the lives they were meant to live.

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vick's dogs to be killed
Posted by: EasterBunny on Aug 31, 2007 11:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Menacing Dogs From Vick Case Await Their Fate

By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT
Published: September 1, 2007
HANOVER, Va., Aug. 30 — These dogs do not have names anymore, just assigned numbers. They are too violent to be let free around others, so they spend their days here in 4-by-8-foot pens.

Jay Paul for The New York Times
11 of the 55 Pit bulls owned by Atlanta falcons quarterback Michael Vick are being kept at Hanover County Animal Control until the trial.

“You don’t take two out at the same time,” said Kevin M. Kilgore, the chief animal control officer at the Hanover County Animal Control Pound. “They would just start going at each other.”

The pound is the temporary home for 11 of the 53 pit bulls seized from the Surry, Va., property owned by Michael Vick where dogfighting took place. The authorities took control of the dogs in April after they raided the property.

The fate of dogs, however, is all but sealed.

Over the next few weeks, animal behaviorists will examine each one to make recommendations. After that, Kilgore can either attempt to adopt out those few that are suitable or put them down.

“One of them may make a nice pet for someone that is an expert in pit bulls and knows exactly what they were doing with it,” he said. “But the majority of people that want dogs like this want them for all the wrong reasons.”

Kilgore, a burly man with blond hair, acknowledged that he did not feel comfortable around the dogs when they are not leashed. When they see or smell another dog, most charge the front of their cages and gnaw at the metal fencing that surrounds them. They are allowed out only to see a veterinarian once a week or when kennel workers must clean the pens.

“They can’t calm down in a kennel environment,” Kilgore said. “Their prey drive and activity level are so high that if not controlled they can be very dangerous. Because they came from fighting bloodlines, they are even worse. They latch on to any sound or noise.”

The dogs take up the entire back section of the kennel. Most approach the front of their pens and try to lick Kilgore’s fingers, but a few are extremely shy and hide in the back of their cages.

Dog No. 43, a wiry black pit bull, spends most of her time scampering from one end of her pen to the next. Her chest and neck are covered with scars. A pen over, the nose of No. 30, a tan pit bull, is also marked by scars. She stands at the front of her cage, calmly peering out. But when a photographer used a flash, the dog’s mood changed.

“That dog will lick your fingers, but her emotions can range,” Kilgore said. “She can get very irritated.”

The dog began to growl. “Now she is not happy,” Kilgore said. “She is nice, but it is all genetics, sometimes.”

A few pens down, No. 41 appeared to be so timid that he hid in the back of his cage and ducked his head behind his hind, a sign of past abuse or socialization problems.

“It’s very sad,” Kilgore said. “He is clearly not happy. We, as humans, have bred animals for our own pleasure for thousands of years. In this case, we have bred animals to fight.”

At night, the lights are turned off in the hope that the dogs will rest. The local authorities said they keep a close eye on the building to ward off people who might attempt to take one of the animals.

“They have put on a lot of weight since they got here, and that is good,” Kilgore said. “It may be diet. Some have gained seven pounds. Some 10. We may feed them more. We have probably catered a little more to them because of where they have been and what they have been through.”

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» RE: vick's dogs to be killed Posted by: hagwind
Vick Used as Fundraiser for Bogus Animal Rights Groups
Posted by: melanie24 on Aug 31, 2007 6:49 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most offenses humans commit against dogs are much worse than Vick's dog fighting yet are ignored by the supposed animal rights groups. We have a enormous problem with dog overpopulation because at lot of people want to make money by breeding their dogs. Yet animal rights people just want to lecture them and wag their fingers. Unwanted dogs suffer a slow agonizing death of starvation and disease much worse than dying in a dog fight. We have people losing their homes and health from constantly barking dogs yet animal rights groups and animal control does nothing. They even have a preverted idea that a constantly barking dog is natural instead of an indication of neglect, lack of training, and extreme stress. We have people (usually the very young and very elderly) being maimed and killed by vicious dogs yet animal rights groups and animal control do nothing.

This is selective justice on a successful black man. Most people who abuse animals remain unprosecuted and are allowed to continue to abuse animals by animal control and the animal rights groups. These animal rights groups think they can just raise more money from racists by selectively going after a successful black man while they do nothing all year.

At least in the Vick case there were no direct human victims. The animal rights people tend to ignore cases with human victims- where someone is abusing or neglecting their animal and causing harm to other humans in doing so. They won't help an animal if it would help a human too. And they won't help any living creature if that can't make money off it.

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I Don't Get The Argument
Posted by: desidid on Aug 31, 2007 8:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when, the race of a person is somehow a mitigating factor in being cruel and vicious. As a dog owner I would put my life on the line for my pets. The idea that, it isn't so bad to train animals to kill each other for our entertainment is just abhorrent. Isn't it bad enough we train our children to kill others enough bloodsport? If someone wants to bet on death and destruction, why not try to guess how many people will be killed, by a car bomb each day we remain in Iraq.

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