Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Register to Vote: Rock the Vote, powered by Working Assets Wireless
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Rights and Liberties

POINT: The Difference Between a Womb and a Wallet

By Kai Ma, AlterNet. Posted July 26, 2006.


A woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is not the same as a man's choice to financially opt out of fatherhood.
Advertisement

Millions of men are forced to financially support children they never wanted. Matthew Dubay, a 25-year-old computer technician in Michigan, decided that he shouldn't have to do that.

Dubay didn't want to pay child support for the daughter he conceived with Lauren Wells, his 20-year-old ex-girlfriend. During their three-month relationship, Dubay allegedly told Wells he wasn't ready to have children, and she replied that she was infertile but using birth control anyway. After they had unprotected sex, she got pregnant and chose to raise the child. Dubay promptly received a court order to pay $500 a month in child support.

On his behalf, the National Center for Men filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Michigan last March, contending that if a woman has the legal right to abort, give up for adoption, or raise a child from an unintended pregnancy, a man should be able to choose to decline the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The case, nicknamed "Roe v. Wade for men," equates a woman's decision about her body to a man's right to decide whether he wants children. Last week, U.S. District Court Judge David M. Lawson dismissed the lawsuit, writing in his decision, "[Dubay] had difficulty accepting the financial consequences of his conduct so the state came to his assistance." Still, the NCRM, which plans to appeal, has managed to provoke a national conversation about "reproductive rights for men."

From the beginning, the case was a longshot. The courts have never sided with men like Dubay, believing that a child's interest in receiving financial support from two parents outweighs a father's claim of being duped into financial responsibilities for which he was unprepared. Matthew Dubay has sparked debate over whether men can claim the right to terminate all parental responsibility, based essentially on the verbal equivalent of an informal prenuptial agreement.

Glenn Sacks, a commentator on father's issues who supports Dubay, recently wrote, "When it comes to reproduction, in America today women have rights and men merely have responsibilities."

But if men are the ones who have reproductive responsibilities, why are 10 million single mothers in the United States living with children under the age of 18? Sure, women have choices, but only at a price for which there's no male equivalent. We can choose whether we want to be mothers, but we have no control over how the experience of motherhood will physically alter our bodies, nor how it may limit our mobility or careers.

During a planned pregnancy, a man doesn't have to struggle with the fact that his body and life will change drastically. He will not have to endure physical pain; he will not have to decide whether to breastfeed for more than a year. If he decides to avoid a pregnancy, he will not have to take daily doses of estrogen and progestin, and so endure the side effects of nausea, bloating and headaches. He will not inject himself with Depo Provera, or afix to his skin the hormone-infused Patch, a contraceptive thinner than the warning label it comes with.

There are women out there who claim to be on birth control when they are not, who promise to have an abortion if they get pregnant, and then change their minds. There are even women who poke holes in their diaphragms or, perhaps like Dubay's partner, claim to be infertile when they are not.

But for every woman of that sort, there are men who, in different ways, lie, deceive, break their promises, or pull a 180. There are men who agree to marry but don't, or refuse to pay child support and are deadbeat dads. Dubay claims that he has been trapped into financially supporting a child for 18 years. What about the millions of women who find themselves trapped into single motherhood for life with, often, next to no recourse?

Dubay's suit was always more of a provocation, than a case. In the court of public opinion, he has attempted to expand the concept of reproductive rights by replacing the pro-choice motto, "My body, my choice," with "my wallet, my choice."

I wish my womb were as simple as his wallet. A woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is not the equivalent of a man's choice to financially opt out of fatherhood.

A man does have choices. He can choose not to be part of his child's life. But he shouldn't be able to choose to abandon that child in the lurch. Financial support is necessary to sustain a healthy existence. Compared to raising a child alone, forking over a few hundred dollars a month is a small price to pay.

Digg!

Kai Ma's writing has appeared in Jane, Newsday, and the San Francisco Chronicle.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from Rights and Liberties! Sign up now »


Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
You miss the point
Posted by: aladdinsane on Jul 26, 2006 12:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, I think everyone agrees that it would be better for a child if daddy paid up. There is no doubt about this. It is, however, a simple issue of equal rights. A woman has A choice to keep or absolve all responsiblity for a child. A man has none.

Many people argue that it would be better for married mothers to stay home and raise the kid. Perhaps we should have a law that forces all married mother's to do this. Why not? It's better for the kid! Why should she not sacrifice the same "selfish" rights a MAN has as it's better for the child. Do you see the absurdity?

It's a basic issue of equality. I think any man who would abandon a child is a miserable sack of crap, but I think that he should be GUARANTEED the equal opportunity provided to women.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: You miss the point Posted by: terihu
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: frazell
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: astudent
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: frazell
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: Sushi
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: bgeerdes
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: Willie
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: duck-lady
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: digitalspy
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: Barracuda5096
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: pipes
» Terihu's Bogus argument Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: lolahbelle
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: You miss the point Posted by: eaprez
Your conclusion's correct, but there's an error in your premises
Posted by: PaktikaTL on Jul 26, 2006 12:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women can also choose to abandon or refuse or fail to support their children - it happens all the time. They probably do it less than men do, but it is still a "choice" that is available to them in the same way that is availabe to men. The only procreative choice that is not either shared or available to men and women is the choice to terminate the pregnancy or have the child; only a woman has that choice and only a woman suffers the physical consequences of that choice.

I agree that the societal cost of changing this equation is not worth the consequences.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Prevent your own pregnancy
Posted by: pete ess on Jul 26, 2006 12:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A man who doesn't want children must make sure he doesn't allow his sperm to get anywhere where it could meet an egg! He cannot rely on anyone else to do that for him.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: Steve_in_NH
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: lindalee
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: digitalspy
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: clzatzman
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: digitalspy
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: bgeerdes
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: clzatzman
» RE: Prevent your own pregnancy Posted by: digitalspy
» What egg? Posted by: YogiBear
» YES! Posted by: sln70
moral equivalence != legal equivalence
Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver on Jul 26, 2006 2:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is not the equivalent of a man's choice to financially opt out of fatherhood.

They could be the same in the eyes of the law. Both are essentially abdications of responsibility, but just as a woman has a legal right to refuse motherhood, a man must have an equal right to refuse fatherhood. Believe it or not, Roe v. Wade applies as much to men in its own way. A law cannot, before the U.S. Bill of Rights, be applied in a discriminatory fashion; it must be equally relevant, legally speaking, to all persons. That a man will never need to ask for an abortion is not a matter of legality, but of biological imperatives. It is the fact that a man cannot become pregnant that renders Roe v. Wade a moot point in our case, not a legal decision.

So the question becomes: What is the male equivalent to abortion rights?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» you are silly Posted by: sln70
» touché Posted by: sln70
Matt Dubay needs a scarlet letter S
Posted by: mazel on Jul 26, 2006 3:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For SUCKER. Let his story be a lesson for all men who don't want to pay child support. Stop relying on your partner for birth control!

I feel very bad for the child in this situation--a mother who is very possibly a conniving bitch and a father who is a tight-fisted moron. An abortion was probably a good idea.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» a conniving bitch for Posted by: repo
» um, "allegedly" Posted by: repo
» RE: um, "allegedly" Posted by: YogiBear
» F for fool Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: F for fool Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: F for fool Posted by: Willie
» RE: F for fool Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: F for fool Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: F for fool Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Matt Dubay needs a scarlet letter S Posted by: Snorom Larebil
Where Does Life Belong?
Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jul 26, 2006 4:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have read "nature" in these comments as if it were some egregious misfortune or an ultimate bane. Where did the anger and resentment about being a male or female come from? The argument is over "my body" and "my wallet" without regard for the more fundamental issue of life. Up until a century ago soon after males and females went through puberty they were ready for marriage, family and adulthood. But society has lept forward, mostly by economic and political ideology, to a point when the adolescence has been extended into the ages of mid to late 20's. Sexuality is promoted and exploited by the media. So now there is a large population that is not prepared for children, have little understanding of the responsiblities of caring for life and a constant message that sex has no consequences. The problem, from my view, is no sex education in school, no socialization of boys that they must take responsibility for their sexual acts when men and most of all that the relationship between a womand and man is the fundamental foundation for maturity and growth and sex should only add to a secure and intimate understanding and not be the leading aspect of communication. There just seems to be a confusion, distrust and animosity between males and females that I do not remember historically. It is as if many are unhappy with their own natures. One fact is nature certainly will not conform to any social, political or personal ideology, wish or expectation.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Where Does Life Belong? Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Where Does Life Belong? Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Where Does Life Belong? Posted by: celticsweetgrass
Proud Feminist - Am I the only one?
Posted by: terradea on Jul 26, 2006 5:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a feminist. I am the mother of three adults. I am a smart, responsible woman. And I am shocked at the hypocrisy of so-called “smart & progressive” women like the writer of this commentary.

Do not force something on a man that you do not want forced upon you. It is that simple.

There is no logical or ethical reason in this country (as it stands today) to force a man to support a child he does not want. None. Ladies, if you cannot afford a child, DO NOT HAVE ONE. Otherwise, you are a weak, dependent, irresponsible hypocrite. And unfortunately, there are already enough of those around.

Attention ladies! YOU control your body. YOU control your finances. YOU control your life. YOU make the decisions regarding sex. YOU should be a responsible adult. He might not pay you. He might not marry you. He might leave you if he does. YOU might be alone with a kid someday. Wake up and be responsible for yourself.

I am not talking about the silly notion of abstinence. That is just stupid political and religious talk. And there is no such thing as promiscuity. That is a judgmental and ignorant concept. Sex is fun, and Sex is an absolute means to enlightenment as a woman (why do you think men in religion and politics have consistently, over the centuries, attempted to control a woman’s sex life?).

BUT. Everything changes IF ABORTION RIGHTS ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM WOMEN. Then, and only then, may women ethically and logically FORCE men to pay out the nose. Trap them. Do whatever. But, as long as women are able to control their own reproductive process, they have no right in this world to force a man to pay a dime for a child they choose to have.

With this in mind, young men who ignore today’s threat to a woman’s right to a safe abortion is really just ignoring their own right to choose.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Absolutely correct! Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Correct and then some Posted by: Pocahontas
» RE: Correct and then some Posted by: drmeow
» RE: Correct and then some Posted by: roadkill1965
» fantastic Posted by: repo
» Not the only one Posted by: YogiBear
» Right on Posted by: kit79
» RE: Proud Feminist - The Other Side Posted by: roadkill1965
» Terradea for president!!!!! Posted by: Aussie Kim
Accountability
Posted by: mysticalrae on Jul 26, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with the comments about males being accountable for their actions. If you drive a car and make a mistake that causes an accident, in the eyes of the law you are accountable for any damages that mistake may cause; whether intentional or not. You do the best you can in this world, and if your precautions are not adequate, you just have to make the best of the consequences. Mature people understand this, life is not a free-for-all.
And pregnancy aside, why would anyone choose to have unprotected sex with someone they hardly know (three months is not an adequate amount of time to know someone) when there is a serious epidemic of STD's and AIDS/HIV ? It seems that people spend more time and do more investigation and research into buying a new car than is done when making a decision about sexual contact. Regardless of gender, making choices based on logic and not lust about one's own body should be foremost. That is what separates us from the chimps.
Until our society can/will provide adequate care and support (financially and otherwise) to people raising children without a partner, I support the so-called inequality of the system in opting to give more "rights" to women to make the choices that are (more than likely) going to affect every area of their lives for the next 20 years.
This man (little boy) can cry victim all he wants, but the child in this situation is the real victim.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» totally Posted by: sln70
» RE: Accountability Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
What about the real issue?
Posted by: Moonray on Jul 26, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point is, Dubay's girlfriend indulged in fraud to get him to conceive and support a child. He had made it very clear that he didn't want a child and she deceived him.

In essence, she committed a crime against him, and the courts have validated that crime -- and enlarged upon it.

This is justice? Maybe in George W. Bush's strange little world. Don't forget to adopt a frozen zygote today.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What about the real issue? Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: What about the real issue? Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: What about the real issue? Posted by: celticsweetgrass
» RE: What about the real issue? Posted by: PumbyUmpkin
Think Ahead
Posted by: pcushniesr on Jul 26, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After my second child was born in 1973, I had a vasectomy. My then-wife and I decided that two was enough. The vasectomy served a twofold purpose: It guaranteed with almost 100% precision that I would never again impregnate a woman by the traditional method (yes, I was made aware at the Planned Parenthood clinic where the surgery took place that a microscopic possibility existed that some determined and spiteful sperm might still find its way out, but that such events were very rare) and it relieved my wife of the unfair necessity of dosing her body with dubious contraceptive chemicals. So, if I may be allowed to toot my own horn, I believe I did the right thing and I have never regretted it. I’m sixty-two now and there have been no more children. To all you young men out there who are still looking for the “casual lay” (pardon my language, ladies), I suggest you think about this quick ‘n’ easy operation. If, however, you think you would like to have children somewhere down the road, or if you are one of those macho morons who think you will be less of a man as a result of this operation (you won’t be; I guarantee your voice will not get higher and you will not walk with a swish), then I suggest you mentally prepare yourself to reap what you may possibly sow the next time you decide to dip the ol’ wick. In other words, think ahead. Think ahead and, if you really are a man, be ready to accept your responsibilities. This is a highly philosophical issue, one without a clear yes or no answer. Many good points have been raised in previous posts, but ultimately it will be up to the courts, and right now you have to live with things as they are. So THINK! Anytime you drop in for a little of the ol’ in-out, think about that worst-case scenario and make up your mind about what you would do about it. Might want to talk it over with Mary Jane, too.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: mysticalrae
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: jfkeeler
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Think Ahead Posted by: YogiBear
The National Center for Men has a Website
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jul 26, 2006 7:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Betcha that site got a lot more hits after the "Roe v Wade for Men" story hit the blogs ...

Among the things that NCM will provide (for a fee) is telephone counseling to help you get over the harm done to you by your childhood CIRCUMCISION .

This issue invites are a number of cheesy jokes and cheap shots but it's an self-revealing choice of grievances, all the same. The position is 'male circumcision in the West is the moral and medical equivalent of Female Circumcision as practiced in the East.'

There is some small particle of truth in the position: there are men who declare, think, feel, and believe that they have been harmed, damaged and traumatized by circumcision ... and many more eager to believe them -- especially if the topic of female genital mutilition has been raised.

These men also feel that public restroom space should be planned based on a square foot per patron system. So, if a sports bar has 4 times as many male as female patrons, and devotes 200 square feet to their men's room, the women's facilities should be 50 square feet. "That's fair isn't it?"

Similarly ... if a woman can choose to bear or not bear a child ... shouldn't the biological father be able to prevent or insist on the abortion, too? Isn't that only fair?

"Our Money, Ourselves" after all.

(Or maybe the two of them should decide the matter by democratic process ... the one with the more friends gets to decide outcome.)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» 50 square feet Posted by: Iconoclast421
Poor little Matt
Posted by: Bic Pentameter on Jul 26, 2006 7:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Says he was lied to. But we may never know the truth.

How many men lie, brag, show-off, posture and fake it, to get into a woman's pants? More than a few, I suspect.

In fact, the vast majority of males seem to think this is what they are supposed to do. I know that every time the discussion has risen in a group setting, it's me against everyone else. With very few exceptions, my male confrères are well practiced in the art, and consider me a big sucker or some kind of chump.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: hanex
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Poor little Matt Posted by: YogiBear
» Oh I love your comments Posted by: sln70
Manufacture controversy! Stir up the gender wars! Meanwhile, our nation is in tatters.....
Posted by: rebel_pig on Jul 26, 2006 7:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rich just keep ripping us off even more, our standard of living continues to drop compared the other more advanced nations, and while Rome burns, our supposedly earnest and conscientious Netroots liberal blogosphere continues to try to divide us up into battling factions by stirring up gender and race wars by pitting us against each other.

Nice work you can get it!

Who is our common enemy--us, the common people, men and women, black and white, or is it the rich people?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

IF a man was in a longterm relationship AND was being responsible about birth control . . .
Posted by: janvdb on Jul 26, 2006 8:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF the woman had agreed that the couple wanted no children AND the two had discussed that and documented that in writing AND they were using birth control AND the pregnancy resulted from a failure of said mutually-agreed-upon birth control, OK. In such a circumstance, I can see the point of those who say a man should have some say about the fate of the child, a decisive say.

I think he should be able to force the woman to give the child up for adoption, if done while the woman still has the option to knowingly opt for an abortion instead.

But I cannot see giving men under any circumstances the right to merely refuse to pay.

I think that in the above mentioned case, a man should have the right to insist, legally and in writing, if done during the first two months of the pregnancy, that the mother give the child up for adoption, if she choses not to abort.

As far as a man going out to a bar, picking up a woman, having unprotected sex and then bitching when he gets hit with a paternity suit, I say -- SHUT UP.

So how could such a regime be effectuated on the ground? With extreme difficulty, is all I can say. You would have to have affidavits, witnesses and evidence supporting the cohabitation or longterm committed relationship of the couple, of the mutually-agreed-upon and used birth control, statements from doctors regarding said birth control, written proof of the mother's expressed agreement with the father's expressed disinclination to have children . . . a lot of documentation.

Under no circumstances would I be for a program which would allow men to simply renounce their fathers' obligation while leaving the child in the hands of the mother. If a father does not want to support his child, the child should be aborted or adopted.

Unless the child is conceived using artificial insemination from a sperm bank. A woman who would organize that should be able to keep her father-free child. Accidental mothers, no.

IMHO.

A better alternative would be some form of reversible male contraception. I understand some barefoot genius in India has come up with something that works wonders, using "a reversal of electromagnetic polarity." For $25 (in India), men can have a reversible vasectomy. If not that, let's get some money out there to develop some form of reversible male contraception.

Then, boys, use it. Or get out the paperwork and get it in order. Save those birth control receipts. Build a case.

But if men are just being negligent, careless and dumping birth control responsibility on the mother -- no outs for you.

IMHO.

Jan VanDenBerg

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Sperm banking Posted by: BlueTigress
responsibility
Posted by: Metesh-ah on Jul 26, 2006 9:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A male should take responsibility for being fertile...either abstain from sex until you are ready, or get your self "fixed". Women too have this choice. I believe in Choice, but I believe it should be a last ditch effort....

In this article, the writer describes some things a woman has to decide...I didn't notice her health listed, nor how she is going to support the child once it is born, who will tend it (and pay for the tending) while she is at work earning the money to feed and clothe the child or pay it's medical bills.

Abortion is NOT something a woman does without thought, it is a painstaking decision process. A man who does not want to marry the woman (and being pregnant is NO reason to get married), he can walk away if the child is not healthy....the woman can't....don't believe me, carry a living being in your body for 9 months, feeling it move, kick, suck its thumb, hiccup, etc, and tell me you didn feel SOMETHING for that being.

To me, giving a child up for adoption is not a viable option..too many adoptees have been abused and murdered. I would care too much about the child to risk that...better to abort as soon as possible upon learning of the pregnancy than to risk giving the child to a monster....

To support or not support a human that you have helped create, ready or not, is not an issue...and it goes far deeper thant he pocket book. A child needs love, nurturing, attention. If the male (or female) involved in it's creation is not up to all if then the least he or she can do is make sure it has the basic neccessities of life...$500 a month is nothing compared to what it costs to actually stay in the home and financially suipport the child, especially once it reaches school age...

So, stop sniveling, support the child that may result in your getting your jollies, or abstain from said jollies or get a vasectomy--simple

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: are you kidding? Posted by: Pocahontas
» RE: responsibility Posted by: BlueTigress
Life's unfair
Posted by: attackmice on Jul 26, 2006 10:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is nothing equal or fair about human reproduction. In fact, the deck is basically stacked AGAINST women. Now don't get me wrong, I love being a woman, but periods hurt and we get them for most of our lives. Getting pregnant isn't just about morning sickness and mood swings; even in our medically advanced society women still die in childbirth. And even if we're healthy and glowing, delivering a child hurts like a mutha'. It's not fair that men deposit a few squirts of sperm (which is for the most part enjoyable for them) while we have to suffer for a potential orgasm. Is the fair? no. Is that EQUAL. Hell no.
You can argue all you want that men should be able to have the same rights, (even though they don't take the same risks) when it comes to childbearing, but why in God's name should they? I can agree with fairness and equality when it comes to jobs, and schools, or hell even women and men going dutch on dates, but until we live in a world where we grow our babies in an incubator or some shit like that, reproduction will never be fair.
Just look at how far we've come when it comes to sex: There aren't that many shotgun weddings, and men and women who have sex outside of marriage don't have to spend a day in the stocks getting pelted by rotten fruit. All we say is, that if you play, you gotta pay. We Women risk our health and our financial responsiblity; all men have to worry about is their paycheck.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Life's unfair Posted by: MatthewSavage
Moral of the story
Posted by: YHWH on Jul 26, 2006 10:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I've learned anything in my short life, it's that women will forever remain blameless for their sexual activities.

So guys, the lesson here is: Always use your own rubbers! And get a paternity test.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Moral of the story Posted by: ezilla
» RE: Moral of the story Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Moral of the story Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Moral of the story Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» yeah, this one's annoying Posted by: kit79
» RE: yeah, this one's annoying Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: yeah, this one's annoying Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: yeah, this one's annoying Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Moral of the story Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Moral of the story Posted by: YHWH
Blame game
Posted by: hhartman on Jul 26, 2006 10:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I for one choose not to judge either party for their action. I have gotten pregnant twice while on the birth control pill, once resulting in a miscarriage and the other time resulting in my beautiful baby daughter. Both times was with my current partner, who was told that he probably wouldn't be able to have children because his grandmother took DES in the 1950's to prevent miscarriage. So I got pregnant, it happens. My other experience (not very vast, as I have only had two partners my husband and a former boyfriend), is that birth control has mostly been my responsibility (as well as the experience that all my female friends have had) and that most young men assume that if you are on the pill then you are okay, and they are off the hook. I think a lot of the comments play into the notion in our society that reproduction is solely the woman's responsibility. Regardless, he still parented a child, and therefore it is his responsibility to support it in some way. 'Nuff said.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

What is the question?
Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 26, 2006 11:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men do not care about children as much as women do. Look at the stats of which parent has custody. Almost always the mother.
All this talk about 'welfare mothers'....why not 'welfare fathers'?
Because there are none.

After our divorce-(he left for a younger woman) when my children when to visit their father ...he didn't even take vacation time to be with them. He got a sitter.

What we need, is for women to have a way to earn a living, and still take care of the kids. That is really hard, maybe impossible ....in a capitalist society.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What is the question? Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: What is the question? Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: What is the question? Posted by: zoomorph
» There we go Posted by: kit79
» RE: What is the question? Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: What is the question? Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: What is the question? Posted by: heatherj
At the very least . . .
Posted by: kit79 on Jul 26, 2006 2:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to prosecute people who lie and trick partners into pregnancy. That is fraud. This includes women who try to trap men into pregnancy by lying about their fertility status or sabotaging their own birth control, and men who sabotage women's birth control so they get pregnant, slitting condoms and the like. Hopefully, these deceitful types only make up a minority.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: At the very least . . . Posted by: MatthewSavage
Personal Responsibility
Posted by: zoomorph on Jul 26, 2006 2:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with some of the above posters entirely (well... almost :)

Personal responsibility is of utmost importance. It really should start with your own body.

I too am a proud woman. I too agree that it is bulls**t that some women find they have to latch onto a guy and