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Democracy and Elections

Florida and Michigan Delegate Battle Lacks Common Sense

By Steven Rosenfeld, AlterNet. Posted March 14, 2008.


Amid the bickering and posturing, there is an elegant and fair solution: split the delegates.
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Now that the next Democratic primary is more than a month away, the party's factions are taking up the next big fight: if and how to seat delegates from the misbehaving states of Florida and Michigan, which were stripped of delegates by the Democratic National Committee for holding unauthorized primaries in early 2008.

The protests by Democratic Party leaders in Florida and Michigan, demanding that their delegates be seated, have increased in pitch in recent days, with the Florida Democratic Party, led by Hillary Clinton supporter, Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., unveiling an extremely complicated and costly proposal to have Floridians vote by mail or in regional voting centers in early June.

Beyond the legal and administrative snags such a plan raises, from getting the Bush Justice Department to quickly sign off on a Democratic Primary (under the Voting Rights Act), to the Florida Legislature adopting a bill sanctioning the contest, to having Florida election officials and a private yet-unnamed firm conduct and count the voting by mail, to raising the millions to pay for it, the Florida revote poses some very big political issues. Michigan, meanwhile, is eyeing another primary, another multimillion-dollar proposition.

Of course, Florida and Michigan Democrats do not see that they are to blame for taking away their voters' voice in the nominating process. Then there's the irony that the very states that broke the DNC rules to have an early voice in the nominating contest now want to have the last word -- the primary season's final votes. And then there is the obnoxious maneuvering by the Clinton campaign to do anything to get Florida and Michigan's previous primary to count, even though it -- like all the Democratic presidential contenders -- pledged last summer to not campaign there and agreed no delegates would be seated.

You can hear it now, just as the Clinton campaign continues to claim that whoever wins Pennsylvania's April 22 primary is somehow uniquely qualified to be the nominee, so too will the argument be made about Florida's decisive "decider" role. Sorry, Michigan, but despite your governor's insistence that you, too, should get a revote (as long as your state doesn't spend a penny), Florida is ahead with proposing a multimillion-dollar revote plan.

Is there an alternative to this Machiavellian madness? The answer is yes, indeed, and it has been in plain view all along. DNC Chairman Howard Dean could emerge from monklike seclusion and insist on dividing the two state's delegates 50-50 between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. That has been talked about, but it's been glossed over as Clinton's campaigners continue to believe their road to the nomination is paved with delegates from Florida and Michigan.

The increasingly poisonous atmosphere surrounding the Florida proposal suggests that there is no other option that would not be seen as favoring one side or the other. Perhaps the Clinton camp's incessant protests are backfiring in this regard. But this way the party gets to seat delegates from all 50 states, Florida and Michigan are somewhat chastened for behaving badly by holding unauthorized primaries, and Democratic donors save perhaps $20 million that can otherwise be spent on defeating John McCain.

By midday Thursday, there was a glimmer of hope that common sense might be returning to the Florida-Michigan fray. The Associated Press reported that Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman said it was increasingly unlikely that her state would see a do-over election. In short, the clock is running out on such a proposal, because a new election would trigger all kinds of legal notices and warning periods pushing the date beyond early June.

With the DNC's credentials committee not scheduled to meet for weeks, it appears the delegate decision is landing on Howard Dean's desk. Surely the former Vermont doctor can make a decision, saving the patient (his party) by doing no harm (to the Clinton or Obama campaigns).

Digg!

See more stories tagged with: delegates, election 2008, michigan, florida

Steven Rosenfeld is a senior fellow at Alternet.org and co-author of "What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election," with Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman (The New Press, 2006).

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It ain't happenin'
Posted by: observer1728 on Mar 14, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Floridian, I'm more than a little amused by the drama over our primary, but I don't think there will be a re-vote.

The Department of Justice would be no problem; they've already said they'd do an expedited review of any re-vote plan, and the proposed plan meets all their criteria.

No Florida Legislature, Democrat or Republican, is going to pass any bill undoing existing law to change the rules after the fact, discard 1.7 million votes, and hold a new primary because one side didn't like the outcome -- actually doesn't like the outcome of all the other primaries. That would be required, because there is no existing Florida law which permits supervisors of elections to verify voter signatures to any private company -- a critical requirement for ballot security.

The biggest problem, however, is that it just can't be done. The plan casts aside all logic, and the unanimous advice from professional election officials from both parties. Florida has never done a mail vote, and none of the professionals believe it can be done in this short time-frame. The comment you hear over and over is, "It took Oregon twenty years to develop their mail voting procedures."

Your 50-50 solution is preferable to a re-vote, but the best solution is the one originally devised by the DNC. The primary doesn't count...period.

When we went to the polls here on January 29, every single one of us knew our votes would not result in delegates going to Denver to party. We're fine with that. We knocked out John Edwards, Mitt Romney, Rudy Guiliani, and Mike Huckabee (although he didn't admit it until later). We had our say.

It's better to leave things like that than to change the rules after the fact because it suits one person's political interest.

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A non-solution from an Obama partisan.
Posted by: davescott on Mar 14, 2008 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your solution to "split the delegates" would give the same result as not seating the delegations at all, and cheat the voters in Michigan and Florida of their right to do what any primary voter does with a vote -- express a preference and help one canidate get nominated. Almost every piece you write is an Obama flak piece.

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Think About It
Posted by: jacksmith on Mar 14, 2008 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DON'T BE DUPED!!!

Large numbers of Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses. Because they feel he would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And because they feel that a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket would be unbeatable. And also because with a Clinton and Obama ticket you are almost 100% certain to get quality, affordable universal health care very soon.

But first, all of you have to make certain that Hillary Clinton takes the democratic nomination and then the Whitehouse. NOW! is the time. THIS! is the moment you have all been working, and waiting for. You can do this America. “Carpe diem” (harvest the day).

I think Hillary Clinton see’s a beautiful world of plenty, and comfort for all. You will have to work together on this and be aggressive, relentless, and creative. Americans face an even worse catastrophe ahead than the one you are living through now.

You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don’t want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-self.

Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama’s. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

As much as 30% of Obama's primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help.

Hillary Clinton has been out manned, out gunned, and out spent 2 and 3 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton.

If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. Because the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. All of this vote fraud and republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is. YOUNG PEOPLE. DON’T BE DUPED!

The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. I suggest a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket now! Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

I think Barack Obama has a once in a life time chance to make the ultimate historic gesture for unity, and change in America by accepting Hillary Clinton’s offer as running mate. Such an act now would for ever seal Barack Obama’s place at the top of the list of Americas all time great leaders, and unifiers for all of history. But the time to act is soon.

The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen.

“This is not a game” (Hillary Clinton)

Sincerely

jacksmith...

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» With all due respect... Posted by: PJAW
» RE: Think About It Posted by: observer1728
» RE: Think About It Posted by: DeeOhGee
This is one issue
Posted by: PJAW on Mar 14, 2008 4:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
where the Democrats should follow the example of the Repblicans. Once you have made a decision, stick to it, even if it turns out to have been wrong, or as in this situation, creates unforeseen complications.

The decision to not seat delegates from Florida and Michigan was made in the political context that existed at that time, and it is at least in part responsible for everything that has happened since. In other words, Florida and Michigan have already had as much impact on this campaign as they should. It's ludicrous to "redecide" and try to take a different action after your original action has already affected the context that now prevails.

From my perspective, this upheaval is being driven largely by the Clinton campaign, which supported the original decision but now sees a revision of that decision as their only hope of securing the Democratic nomination. They need to accept that it's over and they have lost. Hillary is not the "people's choice". Their only hope of "victory" is to engage in political chicanery and perverson of the political process.

Their problem (and perhaps America's in general) is that they view this as a battle, to be fought and won. Well, it's not. It's a selection process, and it is now clear who has been selected. They need to pack up whatever little dignity they have left and leave the campaign trail. Get behind Obama and work toward getting him elected President. Obama was not my first choice either, but I'm happy with him as the Democratic nominee.

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HUH??
Posted by: curiousgeezer on Mar 14, 2008 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope, for your Family's sake, you can delete this column before the person responsible for your paycheck reads it! Get someone to read this to you Stevie!
A fifty fifty split would not count anyone's vote!! Why even bother? You get the same result by doing nothing!
In case your boss does read today's blog, you might check with the Bush administration! I'm sure there is room for a man with your mentality!
( I'd skip Mensa if I were you!) CG

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» TRUE!!! Posted by: Verjenie
» RE: TRUE!!! Posted by: 23skidoo
The most viable solution
Posted by: operdoc on Mar 14, 2008 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just moved back to Florida last Fall after eighteen years and was amused by the fact that the local politics are just as ridiculous and backward as they were when I left. Splitting the votes seems fair to me. All this discussion about the fairness of the DNC's decision should have taken place before the election. Didn't hear a word then from Senator Nelson or good ol' boy Guv'nor Charlie Crist. I have to say that Clinton's maneuvers seem like typical Clinton maneuvers, which is one of the many reasons I voted for Obama.

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» RE: Watch FOX NEWS much???? Posted by: Andie927
Don't let Republicans benefit from this
Posted by: Democritus on Mar 14, 2008 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's clear that the Republican legislature in Florida pulled a fast one on the DNC by having its state primary early, conning Democrats to vote then, as well. Now the DNC is facing a Hobson's choice, with no one being satisfied.

Should Hillary Clinton get all of Florida's delegates? No. She knew the votes weren't going to count, so she would be breaking Party rules if she grabbed the delegates by default.

Should there be a "do over"? This is the alternative I'd prefer, because then I'd get to vote twice--first for Kucinich and then for Obama. I feel sure that most people who voted for other than Clinton would vote for Obama the second time around. Will it happen? I don't think so. Florida's Republican governor won't provide any state funds, and the DNC wants to save funds for the general election.

Why not split the delegates? This won't cost anything, and it would probably reflect the results of a do-over. Would it be the same as "doing nothing." No. It would result in having the Florida delegation seated at the national convention. Doing nothing would have them stay home.

There's a lesson in this somewhere for Democrats. I think it's this. Don't let another Republican governor and legislature snooker you into something that's going to come back and bite you later. Craft the Party rules with an eye to the future, and remember that the Republicans are always going to try to take unfair advantage. It's their nature.

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an "elegant" and "fair" solution
Posted by: davescott on Mar 14, 2008 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You "solve" the problem by taking away the actual votes of Democrats who voted for Clinton over Obama. Elegant and fair if you're his mother or on his staff. What IS fair is to hold another election, so that states don't get away with flouting reasonable party rules.

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» Split delgates Posted by: brunowe
Once again Just for the RECORD!
Posted by: weslen1 on Mar 14, 2008 8:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary Clinton won more votes in BOTH Florida AND Michigan than ALL OTHER CANDIDATES COMBINED!!!!!

The ONLY REASON TO HAVE A RE-VOTE is that the Obama Camp is HOPING that a re-vote with all OTHER candidates now out of the race, that might give Obama an edge and that by NOW some of Clinton's backers MIGHT change their minds. JUST ENOUGH TO TURN THE RESULTS AROUND.

This is a travesty. Hillary won more votes than Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Dodd, Biden, Kucinich AND Gravel COMBINED. IN BOTH FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN.

GIVE HER HER CLEARLY WON DELEGATES NOW!! IF YOU HAVE TO PUNISH SOMEONE TO SATISFY HOWARD DEAN, PUNISH THE PARTY LEADERS WHO MADE THE DECISION TO CHANGE THE PRIMARY DATES AND NOT THE VOTERS WHO HAD NO SAY. SPLITTING THE DELEGATES BETWEEN THE WINNER AND THE CLEAR LOSER WOULD BE DISGRACEFUL, DISHONEST AND ABOMINABLE.

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» People count! People count! Posted by: Verjenie
» You're right, but...... Posted by: Verjenie
» What did he say exactly? Posted by: Verjenie
Politics and the Voice of the People
Posted by: Southern Gal on Mar 14, 2008 9:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who knows what the impact of disenfranchising voters in Florida and Michigan will have on the final election? There is the potential to anger these Democrat voters to the point that they will stay away from the election in November. As the Republican attack machine gets into full force mode, there is going to be so much slime slung at the Democratic candidate, so much distortion of facts regarding important issues, fear mongoring regarding terrorists attacks, etc. that some people may be swayed to vote Republican and the Democrats will need all of the votes they can get to win the election. The people/voters of those states weren't responsible for the state leaderships' decisions. This seems to be a political decision on the part of the Democrat party leadership and they need to negotiate a solution that honors the voters in Florida and Michigan, as well as the Democrat party.

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Complete nonsense, completely.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Mar 14, 2008 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Parties of Money and Power (demobots and republicrats) get to decide who they nominate, and by what rules. If you break those rules, meh...you get disqualified. Those are the petty rules of the Parties of Money and Power, and they're called rules for a reason.

If we as an electorate tolerate the Parties of Money and Power dictating who gets to be president, shame on us, and it is our own fault.

I find nothing in my copy of the United States Constitution that elaborates on Demobot and Republicrat "Primaries". Therefore, I surmise this is a game to foster the current two party (MONEY AND POWER) system, for the purpose of Preznitential Campaigning 18 months ahead of schedule, and collecting as much Money and Power as possible in advance of the November presidential erections.

And yes, we are fools for letting them fool us, time and again.

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» RE: Complete nonsense, completely. Posted by: phineasJwhoopie
» Best line of the piece... Posted by: ABetterFuture
re-vote this nonsense
Posted by: johnp on Mar 14, 2008 11:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The opposition to re-voting this Florida/Michigan travesty, is obvious, though a re-vote is fair, and would yield unpredictible resuts, would cost pocket change, easily absorbed by democrats and the party, and ends this unnecessary dispute, Obama's desperate supporters refuse to allow it. Why? For the simple reason, that something will have been put in place, which creates doubt about the irrefutability of their most Holy Obama's victory. If Obama's lead were as unstoppable as has been claimed, Obama should be delighted to prove it, by "encouraging" a re-vote. Instead he, and his supporters, are trembling in their boots at the prospect of their paper thin lead, evaporating. I ask you the simple question, easy to verify: where would Obama be today, if only democrats were counted in these primaries, instead of allowing republicans to interfere with and destroy our unity and judgment. Of course, republicans will vote in our primaries in such a way, that it helps to promote that dem that is weakest against McCain. Only a fool will not see it.

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» republicans for Obama??? Posted by: Verjenie
» Get this! Posted by: foreverhope
Solomon Solution
Posted by: Jeanne on Mar 14, 2008 12:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perfect. Simple. Cheap. And in a race this close, fair.

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What's her last name?
Posted by: edpierce on Mar 14, 2008 2:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like all other Democratic presidential candidates, Hillary agreed that no candidates should campaign in Florida or Michigan, and that the delegates of these states should not be seated at the Democratic National Convention. Now, when she is losing the Democratic Primary, she wants to change the rules.

There is an obvious similarity between Hillary and George Bush. They both feel that they should have the freedom to disregard rules and laws at will.

On the basis of her childish behavior in the Democratic Primary, I think that it is highly likely that Hillary and her husband are willing to do anything that it takes to become the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party, and more ominously, that they will disregard the US Constitution to achieve their presidential agenda if they are able to manipulate their way into the White House.

Hillary becomes more Bush-like every time she opens her mouth. While I agree with her stated political orientation, I don't think that our nation can survive another "spoiled child" president.

Edward Pierce

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What's her last name?
Posted by: edpierce on Mar 14, 2008 2:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like all other Democratic presidential candidates, Hillary agreed that no candidates should campaign in Florida or Michigan, and that the delegates of these states should not be seated at the Democratic National Convention. Now, when she is losing the Democratic Primary, she wants to change the rules.

There is an obvious similarity between Hillary and George Bush. They both feel that they should have the freedom to disregard rules and laws at will.

On the basis of her childish behavior in the Democratic Primary, I think that it is highly likely that Hillary and her husband are willing to do anything that it takes to become the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party, and more ominously, that they will disregard the US Constitution to achieve their presidential agenda if they are able to manipulate their way into the White House.

Hillary becomes more Bush-like every time she opens her mouth. While I agree with her stated political orientation, I don't think that our nation can survive another "spoiled child" president.

Edward Pierce

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Hillary's Pledge
Posted by: desidid on Mar 14, 2008 5:09 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary signed a pledge with the DNC not to run or campaign in either state. Now that she is in second place she's decided not to honor the pledge. IMO this indicates she won't honor her campaign pledges either.

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» A little fact assistance! Posted by: Verjenie
The DNC created this mess.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Mar 15, 2008 3:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The lack of control over states' jockying for position was a problem to the DNC, but it was a problem they could not resolve. It was not Michigan and Florida Democrats who changed the dates, it was the Michigan and Florida legislatures. A quick Google search indicates that both legislatures are Republican-controlled.

So it would appear that Republicans forced the overblown egos of the idiots in the DNC (under the chairmanship of Howard Dean) to disenfranchise and possibly alienate the Democratic voters of two of the most critical states in the nation.

What we don't hear is also obvious. The DNC threatened the candidates with ruin if they did not agree to ostracizing these states. I would guess that the candidates are still acting under a DNC-imposed gag rule.

I am almost as fearful of another Clinton Presidency as I am of a McCain Presidency, but there is no other resolution possible than that Michigan and Florida be allowed to hold new elections to chose delegates who will be fully counted. I would suggest a coin toss on the issue of whether they should be primaries (favoring Clinton Lite) or caucuses (favoring Obama).

The DNC should pay for the revotes. If it bancrupts them, all the better. That will limit the damage they can do to the Democratic party in the future.

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Too Easy
Posted by: Axiom69 on Mar 18, 2008 6:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both Clinton and Obama were on the ballot in Florida. Seat the Delegates. Since Clinton was the only one on the ballot in Michigan, re-do the primary. Too Easy.

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